Sara Ramsay:
I am here today with Sherry Ulrich, who is originally a California girl. She settled on the West Coast of Canada in 1970 and soon launched her life in music. A singer, songwriter and multi-instrumentalist, she's been winning hearts across North America with her voice, sublime songs and onstage charisma ever since. From her time with the legendary Pied Pumpkin to the hometown band and on as a solo artist, resulted in 25 albums to date, including collaborations with Bill Henderson and Roy Forbes in UHF, Barney Bentall and Tom Taylor in BTU, and more recently, the Highbar Gang, a seven-plus piece bluegrass band with Barney Bentall and Colin Nairn. Along the way, she's garnered two Juno Awards and several nominations and induction into the BC Entertainment Hall of Fame and 2014 Canadian Folk Music Award the year. Sherry tours much of the year in a variety of configurations from solo to trio that includes her daughter Julia and fellow High Bar Gang member, Kirby Barber, to a quartet with pianist Cindy Fairbank and with a full band. Sherry also performs with BTU and the High Bar Gang and produces and hosts Vancouver's Songbird North series for 28 years for the Songwriters Association of Canada. An accomplished and dynamic performer, makes any sized audience feel that they are in her living room, I can attest to this, drawn in by her insightful lyrics and her engaging warmth and humor. So thank you so much Sherry for joining me today.

Shari Ulrich:
I am so happy to be here.

Sara Ramsay:
I'm really

Shari Ulrich:
I

Sara Ramsay:
excited.

Shari Ulrich:
am in Brad Creek, Alberta at Barney Bentall's sister's house because

Sara Ramsay:
Huh?

Shari Ulrich:
Barney and Tom and I are in the middle of a tour. So this

Sara Ramsay:
Nice.

Shari Ulrich:
is not my bedroom in case some of you are like really curious what my bedroom looks like. This is not it.

Sara Ramsay:
I am so excited to have you here today because I'm, I mean, I have to totally, um, out myself here. And like, I grew up listening to you. You were my number one play through all of my teen years. I didn't just like

Shari Ulrich:
Really?

Sara Ramsay:
know all your songs. I think I wanted to be you. Oh yeah. I went on iTunes because it's been a long time since I've listened and I went to find It was like your first probably three or four Records up sort of up to every road that the ones before that that was like my whole And I put on the first ones aren't on iTunes. I still have the cassettes though and I put on the

Shari Ulrich:
And a cassette

Sara Ramsay:
the compilation

Shari Ulrich:
player.

Sara Ramsay:
record that you have Well,

Shari Ulrich:
Right.

Sara Ramsay:
no, unfortunately, but on iTunes record you have and I can

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
still sing every song word for word.

Shari Ulrich:
Oh my God. Well, that must feel pretty good. Your memory still got it. Oh, that is

Sara Ramsay:
I

Shari Ulrich:
quite

Sara Ramsay:
can't remember

Shari Ulrich:
the imprint.

Sara Ramsay:
what I ate for breakfast,

Shari Ulrich:
Oh,

Sara Ramsay:
but...

Shari Ulrich:
wow.

Sara Ramsay:
very excited to have you

Shari Ulrich:
That

Sara Ramsay:
here today.

Shari Ulrich:
is so odd. That just warms my heart. That is so great to hear. I did not know. I mean, I always knew

Sara Ramsay:
Oh, yes.

Shari Ulrich:
you when you were younger

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah!

Shari Ulrich:
and growing up and stuff. But and then was quite impressed that you

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
became a singer. But I didn't know. Oh, give me

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
a big

Sara Ramsay:
the,

Shari Ulrich:
hug.

Sara Ramsay:
the, and the crossover goes back a fair way. I mean, my mom's saying on, so I think she sang with you at Expo and she sang, um, Bee Gees on, uh, at least some of the stuff on Every Road. Um,

Shari Ulrich:
Yes,

Sara Ramsay:
I don't know

Shari Ulrich:
yeah

Sara Ramsay:
if she's

Shari Ulrich:
she

Sara Ramsay:
saying

Shari Ulrich:
did.

Sara Ramsay:
on any of the other

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
stuff, but at least on that

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
record

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
and, um, and I babysat your daughter and

Shari Ulrich:
And

Sara Ramsay:
yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I had your brother

Sara Ramsay:
I babysat

Shari Ulrich:
on

Sara Ramsay:
Julia!

Shari Ulrich:
Bluebird. I had Josh on Bluebird

Sara Ramsay:
Bluebird

Shari Ulrich:
North

Sara Ramsay:
North?

Shari Ulrich:
when

Sara Ramsay:
That's

Shari Ulrich:
he was

Sara Ramsay:
right. Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
about

Sara Ramsay:
yeah, yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
14. Maybe he was very young.

Sara Ramsay:
Oh my gosh.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
So, do you want to flesh out your story briefly for our listeners who might be having their first experience with you and tell us a bit about who you are, your journey in the biz, how you got where you are today?

Shari Ulrich:
Wow, where to start? Okay. Well, I had always played, I played violin and took violin in grade school. So from grade

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
four on till high school, till grade nine. And we had a piano at home. I had a guitar. I loved music. And of course, the Beatles were huge. Joni Mitchell, all of the early seventies, late sixties, early seventies

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
bands and music was so big. in my life. My pink clock radio at the head of my bed was just the source

Sara Ramsay:
Hehehehe

Shari Ulrich:
of it all. And when I, let's see, I went off to, I ran away to Canada when I was 18, and I took my violin with me, but I was not thinking at all that music was my path. And I didn't, it was such a part of me, I didn't take that seriously as something to do. And, but I was certainly in my wandering years of trying to figure out what is, what am I supposed to do?

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
And then once I was in Vancouver for a while, I discovered that music was it, that this was actually something that I had a gift for, that I wasn't

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
starting from scratch. I had an ear, I had good instincts. So I started teaching myself piano and had my sister's flute with me, so I could play a bit of that. And then I met Rick Scott and Joe Mock and we formed the Pied Pumpkin, which was the

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm?

Shari Ulrich:
fun spirited group you could ever imagine with dulcimer and guitar and me on fiddle. I don't think I even played mandolin yet. And that was my formative time of learning that music, playing music is about being really present. Being so in the moment

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
because so much of my role was was the icing which was

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
just be present and that had a huge impact on me. Then I was lured away to the hometown band on the first tour as a sideman with Faldy and

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
Joe Mock had written the song Fear of Flying by then

Sara Ramsay:
Hm.

Shari Ulrich:
and we did one song a night as his backup band on that first big tour. Three thousand seat theatres, two shows a night all across the country, very heady time that I sang. So

Sara Ramsay:
Hm.

Shari Ulrich:
that was this, it was that song really that created an opportunity for me to have a career. And that

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
opportunity with Valdi to have that access to a Canadian audience to that degree. So we decided to make the hometown band be a band. We had a record deal with A&M, we made two records. as they often did in those days saying, we don't hear a hit. I decided, okay, now's my chance. I got to write a song, damn it. So I wrote a song called Feel Good on the dulcimer and it was a successful single. So that really affirmed for me that I should be a songwriter. And then the band dissolved

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
and it was a logical step for me to go solo. So I started writing my first three albums were my first 30 songs. Like I just, I've always

Sara Ramsay:
Wow

Shari Ulrich:
been a very goal oriented writer, like I write a song to go out into the world. I don't write eight songs and pick four of them to go out in the world.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
That's not something I'm proud of, necessarily. But, yeah, and then. And then

Sara Ramsay:
I know I'm just, I'm,

Shari Ulrich:
you suck

Sara Ramsay:
I'm

Shari Ulrich:
it.

Sara Ramsay:
fascinated by that because, you know, some people really talk about writing that you have to write so prolifically and then pare down as opposed to,

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
and I know, I do know you're not the only one. I know a couple of people who don't write that way. They write very goal oriented. It is, you know, they write what goes out into the world and they don't write a lot of extra.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, I think there's maybe

Sara Ramsay:
And it's just.

Shari Ulrich:
four or five songs that I have

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
not recorded because they just didn't quite make it for me. I mean, it doesn't mean that maybe I should have called more, written more, and maybe there would be better songs on those albums. I don't know. But that's just the way I roll. I don't come to writing easily. I'm not

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
somebody who just has started to communicate that way. And there's so much that else that goes on in having a career in music, so much that

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
pulls you every single day to feed and and push and organize and all of that, that it's very easy for songwriting to come last. So it comes to me when I have to do it, when I know that I can't sustain my career without putting on another album of music. But when I do when I do get to that place and then I can get to that creative place I know how to do that where I just shut

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
out everything else and I do what Elizabeth Gilbert says show up and it will Come and I start

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
showing up and it comes and I'm Love the process once I'm into it

Sara Ramsay:
That's a pretty fantastic skill to be able to be so specific about it, to be able to know that you have that relationship with your creativity that when you show up, it also shows up for you.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
You know, that's...

Shari Ulrich:
I don't have faith in that all the time until I finally show up

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
and it starts to come. As before that, I

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
always think, what if it doesn't? This is so hard. It's too hard.

Sara Ramsay:
Hahaha!

Shari Ulrich:
But it always does. It's just not that that interim period between, okay, I don't have to do this now. And when it does finally come is really painful. I hate

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
that part. But I do have faith that it's going to come.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah. So here on the vocal lab, the goal is to sort of shine a light into the industry through the lens of what I know now that I wish I'd known then.

Shari Ulrich:
Ohhhh

Sara Ramsay:
So with that in mind, if you were starting your career all over again, what, if anything, would you do differently?

Shari Ulrich:
Wow, my first thought is, I don't know that I would have done anything differently. But

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
the reality is I am not a worldwide success. I don't know that I made any poor choices. I'd love to know if other people think that I did. I had opportunities and I took them. but I definitely have come to a place where I am a firm believer that Big time fame is not fun I mean,

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
there's fun parts to it and the money is probably great you get special treatment But I think there's so many aspects to it where it's really hard to have a normal life It's hard to have normal interactions

Sara Ramsay:
Uh huh.

Shari Ulrich:
with people I mean we know what it all what it feels like if you meet somebody that you just oh my God, it's that person and you get incredibly

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
nervous and churned up and you might try and say something to them It's just it's not a pleasant feeling so to be on the recipient Receiving end of that where you'd love to just have a normal conversation with a stranger That's a big

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
loss. I think and I wouldn't

Sara Ramsay:
And I think

Shari Ulrich:
want to lose

Sara Ramsay:
you

Shari Ulrich:
that

Sara Ramsay:
stop being able to trust any relationships when you're at that

Shari Ulrich:
Oh, yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
level

Shari Ulrich:
it's just

Sara Ramsay:
of fame.

Shari Ulrich:
yeah, it's fraught with

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
a lot of stuff that is is not fun. And I don't say that as a way to feel OK about not being massively famous. I think it's a real thing. But I have

Sara Ramsay:
Agreed.

Shari Ulrich:
just the right amount where a

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
stranger will come up and say, I love you. Like,

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
how great is that?

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
And and

Sara Ramsay:
Really,

Shari Ulrich:
and be able

Sara Ramsay:
truly.

Shari Ulrich:
to share. Yeah, be able to share what the music is meant to them. Just very. comfortable doing it, you know, not feel that

Sara Ramsay:
Thank you.

Shari Ulrich:
they're just right there in front of me. I just, I love those exchanges. I've never not been okay financially through music. So I feel like I just have, and I have enough of a name that I can phone up presenters and I don't have to send them a bunch of demos to try and explain what I do.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
I mean, they know who I am, That has made it a very smooth and enjoyable life in music.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah. Yeah, I think.

Shari Ulrich:
I will

Sara Ramsay:
I

Shari Ulrich:
say

Sara Ramsay:
was

Shari Ulrich:
that.

Sara Ramsay:
just going to say, I think

Shari Ulrich:
So

Sara Ramsay:
we're having

Shari Ulrich:
you go.

Sara Ramsay:
a little digital lag here. I think

Shari Ulrich:
You go.

Sara Ramsay:
I was just going to say that I think that you've hit a beautiful sweet spot where, um, you, as you say, you're not at the place where you have to deal with all the negative pieces of big fame,

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
but you've been able to create your life I mean, as far as I know anyway, from the outside, it looks like support yourself entirely through the pursuit of original music.

Shari Ulrich:
Yes.

Sara Ramsay:
And that is a, I think that's an enormous thing to be proud of and an enormous gift to be able to live your life through the pursuit of your own original creativity and self-support that way. That's a

Shari Ulrich:
Absolutely,

Sara Ramsay:
huge success to me.

Shari Ulrich:
absolutely.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
But of course, we all have our relative. It doesn't matter where we are. We always have a relative sense of, oh, I should be doing better. I should be working harder.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
You know, there's a lot of shoulds. And I considering the fact that I believe that the music is all about getting it out to people, I would love for it to be out to the world without the accompanying

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
fame.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm, yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I will always feel I'll probably go to my grave feeling that I should have worked harder. I should have tried harder. I should have been more successful. I should have been bigger. But I'm somebody who lives more in the moment. So that makes my life very enjoyable, but there will always be that sort of overriding.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, that's the nature. I mean, that's how

Sara Ramsay:
Yep.

Shari Ulrich:
and why we strive too.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I'm pretty darn happy with how it's all rolled out.

Sara Ramsay:
And is there anything that we haven't already just covered in that, that factors into the question of what would you do the same all over again? Sort of the flip side of what would you do

Shari Ulrich:
Oh,

Sara Ramsay:
differently?

Shari Ulrich:
yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
What would you do the same?

Shari Ulrich:
Well, I always kept a sense of the fact that the music, that it's not about me. It's not about how good I am or how

Sara Ramsay:
I hear

Shari Ulrich:
great I am or whatever. It's about the music. And so

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I learned early on, and this might have come from the pumpkin even, but I certainly have felt it more and more as time's gone on, I feel I never feel like look at me, you know or or even have a great Degree of self-consciousness about the fact that I'm on stage It's more about Celebrating the music I'm giving them this experience of music that is a gift to me in the first place and And I'm just ever in awe of what music does for people and how it makes them feel how it makes me feel for society. It's just it's so magical and it's so powerful. So I have always felt in honor of that. I have felt like that is the thing to bear in mind and doing so also makes it a lot easier to be comfortable on stage.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
And that was the thing that I learned early on too was because in the hometown comfortable playing but it's a

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
weird like performing is a weird thing to do like you're doing

Sara Ramsay:
It

Shari Ulrich:
this

Sara Ramsay:
is.

Shari Ulrich:
thing that you you're making music which you love doing you love the music and people are watching you do it it's just it's

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
almost impossible not to I don't get nervous but it's impossible not to be anxious about that and have little voices going how do I look how do I sound what do they think of me you know have all that noise going on

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I was in the hometown band when I was fronting a band too. I was so uncomfortable talking to the audience because

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
those voices were so loud and I felt so insecure about anything I might say and I could feel the band's judgment about, you know, really a very strong front person here for us, this band of guys. But

Sara Ramsay:
Hehehehe

Shari Ulrich:
when after I had a band and was impaired it down to just a couple of players, I realized that I could just take myself stage. Like, I don't actually have to be anyone different

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
than this. Or in any way different than this. Just be who I am. And it was life-changing. It just makes performing so fun because there's just

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
no room for those voices. You're just being yourself like you would in any other situation with a little bit more finesse with an instrument. But yeah, I forget the original

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
question.

Sara Ramsay:
well,

Shari Ulrich:
But, oh, what would I do the same? Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
yeah, yeah, what would you do the same?

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, so

Sara Ramsay:
And,

Shari Ulrich:
it would.

Sara Ramsay:
and I've, you know, I saw you on stage recently. You did. Well, I wasn't there in person, but it was a streamed thing. Uh, it was a shared concert with you and Jane Mortify,

Shari Ulrich:
Oh

Sara Ramsay:
um,

Shari Ulrich:
yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
through

Shari Ulrich:
yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
the, um, last year, maybe

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, Rogue

Sara Ramsay:
the year

Shari Ulrich:
Folk

Sara Ramsay:
before,

Shari Ulrich:
Club.

Sara Ramsay:
I don't

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
know.

Shari Ulrich:
yeah, we did

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
a double bill.

Sara Ramsay:
that's the one.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
And, um, that was one of the things that struck me was just how easy and comfortable you are in your audience banter, in your funny and engaging and warm and there's, it's, I mean, what your bio says about how easy, you know, it's like you're being invited into your living room. That's really what it feels like.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Your stage Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
And that comes to from feeling so strongly that it's my main focus is to make sure the audience is comfortable. I never

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
want them to be uncomfortable. So I might have some mishap that inside I'm going, oh, shit. But

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I know if I make a joke out of it that they're not going to be uncomfortable. And that's my

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
job is to keep them comfortable.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
And it's

Sara Ramsay:
So

Shari Ulrich:
fun.

Sara Ramsay:
we, it really, really is fun. Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
So

Shari Ulrich:
as you know.

Sara Ramsay:
we are in an industry that sees widely varying levels of education when it comes to supplementing talent, some formal, some very self-taught. What did your musical education look like and how has that impacted your career? then.

Shari Ulrich:
Well, I did learn to read music from playing the violin, which was a very handy tool. I'm not a great

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
sight reader, but it does allow me to write charts for my songs

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
so that I can relay the songs in that form, which I think is a valuable tool.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
Sample and Michael Kreber or just other people who write charts and figuring out or Bill Rungi. But I did not have any other formal training. I've never had voice training.

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
Again, not something I'm proud of. I think I sang better when I was playing flute and saxophone because it allowed diaphragm and, you know, down here instead

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
of just all in my throat. And I did take violin lessons through the Pied Pumpkin era. I took violin lessons and

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
I have always felt and I think this happens to a lot of people. If you're not formally trained, it's easy to have a little voice that says you're you're not quite good enough or that that, you know, there's an insecurity that comes there.

Sara Ramsay:
Imposter syndrome.

Shari Ulrich:
Yes, yeah, I don't know if I've

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
had that, but I certainly am familiar with it in a lot of other arenas.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
But I do think I mean, I think the more more training, the better, the more education, the better. So this is really more of a glitch in my personality, that I'm somebody who doesn't want to stop and read the directions. I want to just put the thing together or whatever it is. Right. I just want to get to it. take that time. So that applies to pretty well everything I do. I just want to do it and I want to learn about it. I want to do it and then I'll have learned about it.

Sara Ramsay:
I think that, I mean, don't get me wrong. I think music education is super valuable and I certainly was, I feel like that was a blessing in my life that I had lots of music education and partly just growing up in the family that I did. And then I did go to school, you know, up at CAP and did a bunch, I didn't quite finish, but I did a bunch of my jazz degree All of that. So I, you know, I did a fair, I do have a fair bit of education. However, I also really recognize that in the field of contemporary music, you know, pop, rock, folk, that, those genres, it's different than if you're trying to work in like musical theater or opera or classical music just as a whole. really go either way. But there are some fields where you really, really have to have a formal education because you have to be able to read to do

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
your job.

Shari Ulrich:
oh yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
And there are some fields where if you are someone who is naturally gifted and have a great ear, and you pick up a lot of stuff by ear, the formal education isn't necessarily so required. And so I don't know that I see that as a, you know, a negative thing. It's just a thing.

Shari Ulrich:
yeah No It's a bonus

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
if you have it. I think the only time that it can get in the way is with classical players. If they don't have, if they've never played by ear, if they've only ever

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
read music, then I think that that kind of education can be a bit of a hindrance, although they might not feel it as such if they're never in that situation where, but I think of music as more about it being more fluid other than writing a song and having lyrics and having structure to a song, the performance of it can be quite fluid and arrangement can be all over the place

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
and give it different colors, et cetera. But I,

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
so I think those are the only situations where a trained, a very highly trained person who's never done any improvising would be really intimidated by it and

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
kind of miss out on that part of the experience. But otherwise there's so many examples. Donnie Mitchell is one of them has no way of analyzing what she does. She just does it. And

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I have noticed when I first started writing, for instance, on piano. And I hadn't had any formal training on piano and didn't. I had grown up with one. So I'd listen to my sister's lessons and then I'd go and remember

Sara Ramsay:
Thank

Shari Ulrich:
what

Sara Ramsay:
you.

Shari Ulrich:
she played by ear. But a lot of it was happy accidents. I just put my hands on the keyboard. And if it sounded good, that combination of fingers, then I'd remember where they

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
could repeat it. And I think that my songwriting had a bit more adventurous flair because of that. Because now 45 years, 50 years later, I have patterns, you know, my hands, whether it's on guitar or piano. And I think a lot of songwriters can sort of veer off into not realizing that they're repeating those patterns and their songs start

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
to have very similar changes and things like that. So that's why I like to pick up an instrument sometimes that I don't don't know how to play because then there's lots

Sara Ramsay:
Yep.

Shari Ulrich:
of happy accidents and then you follow that and see where it leads you.

Sara Ramsay:
I started playing guitar for exactly that reason, because I grew up playing piano. And I mean, I was never any, any pro piano player or anything, but I, you know, I played well enough, certainly well

Shari Ulrich:
Right.

Sara Ramsay:
enough as a, to self accompany and do that.

Shari Ulrich:
Right.

Sara Ramsay:
But I found myself writing the same stuff over and over again, ostensibly. And so I got a guitar and what was great was I didn't have to learn music all over again. had to learn

Shari Ulrich:
Right.

Sara Ramsay:
how to apply it to a new instrument, how to apply it in a different way under my fingers. And it was exactly that. You found shapes that I liked, and I didn't even know how to name the chords, but I liked the way it sounded

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
and I could slide

Shari Ulrich:
didn't matter.

Sara Ramsay:
my hands up and down. And

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
so I started writing very different things. And I think that

Shari Ulrich:
But.

Sara Ramsay:
can be so useful it's never with the intent to get good enough at it to

Shari Ulrich:
No.

Sara Ramsay:
be a performer on that instrument, even if it's

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
only ever as a writing tool, can be so

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
useful. Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I have had something come up in my life that was completely unexpected in that I wanted to I got curious about a tenor guitar. Just thought not something I'd like to get a tenor

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
guitar. And a fellow out of the blue contacted me from Craven Tenor Guitars. He only makes tenor guitars because he

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
really believes in for people by having all six strings that they should have a shot at playing guitar. So he contacted me about having a Sherry Ulrich signature tenor guitar. So they're being

Sara Ramsay:
So cool.

Shari Ulrich:
manufactured right now and they're sweet little instruments and I can't wait. I've got the prototype but I don't have the actual issued one yet. But it's really been an that myself.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I was just thrilled to get that I might get a free tenor guitar.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah!

Shari Ulrich:
This is perfect, but it's blossomed into more than that. But for the same reason, because a tenor guitar, I'm used to a dulcimer, which is usually tuned in a modal way and doesn't have all the frets. It's just a diatonic scale. So it has its limitations, but I love the simplicity of it. And I love the happy accidents that happen when you change tunings. excited about this chapter of my writing to have this new tool that has a bit of more impetus and that the more songs I can create on it and share the more I'll be supporting the Craven Sherry Ulrich tenor guitar.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah!

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah so very cool and and I'm always a big fan of picking up instruments that are new.

Sara Ramsay:
very... so what is a tenor... I'm actually not familiar with a tenor guitar.

Shari Ulrich:
Well,

Sara Ramsay:
What

Shari Ulrich:
it's

Sara Ramsay:
is different

Shari Ulrich:
it technically,

Sara Ramsay:
about that?

Shari Ulrich:
I believe I should know this, but I'm pretty sure it's the top four strings of the guitar

Sara Ramsay:
Okay.

Shari Ulrich:
and not the bottom four. And then but there are different tunes. You can tune it like I would a mandolin and fiddle, which are both tuned the same and this so I could tune it that way as well. So you can change it around. And of course, every time you change the tuning, then your fingers are doing different things chords.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
So it's really exciting as a writing tool, but it'll have, I'll probably put strings that are an octave lower or something lower like higher gauge strings and to give it a little bit more body so that it's good for a self accompanied performance

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
live. Yeah, have a little bit more richness to it. Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
And before we keep going, I'm actually just gonna, all right, you have your earbuds in, yes?

Shari Ulrich:
I do. Am

Sara Ramsay:
Is

Shari Ulrich:
I

Sara Ramsay:
that,

Shari Ulrich:
wrestling?

Sara Ramsay:
yeah. Well, yeah, something is clicking a fair bit, and so I don't know if

Shari Ulrich:
on

Sara Ramsay:
something

Shari Ulrich:
your fifth.

Sara Ramsay:
is hitting them.

Shari Ulrich:
It might be my hair.

Sara Ramsay:
I can't I can't think that it would be your hair doing it, but anyway,

Shari Ulrich:
Well, this

Sara Ramsay:
I just

Shari Ulrich:
is where

Sara Ramsay:
wanted

Shari Ulrich:
the mics

Sara Ramsay:
to.

Shari Ulrich:
are.

Sara Ramsay:
True

Shari Ulrich:
I wonder

Sara Ramsay:
just

Shari Ulrich:
if I'm.

Sara Ramsay:
in case there's anything we can do to

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, thanks.

Sara Ramsay:
minimize it that.

Shari Ulrich:
I'm using it as a mirror there.

Sara Ramsay:
Hehehehe

Shari Ulrich:
I could, I have a clip right here. I can tie my hair back too, if you think that's,

Sara Ramsay:
Well,

Shari Ulrich:
is that

Sara Ramsay:
we

Shari Ulrich:
clicking?

Sara Ramsay:
can try it for a... Nope, that's... I don't think it's your hair. I...

Shari Ulrich:
Oh, it wasn't there. I wonder what I'm doing.

Sara Ramsay:
I don't think

Shari Ulrich:
OK.

Sara Ramsay:
so.

Shari Ulrich:
All right.

Sara Ramsay:
Are your earrings...

Shari Ulrich:
I'll be conscious of it.

Sara Ramsay:
do you have earrings

Shari Ulrich:
No,

Sara Ramsay:
that are

Shari Ulrich:
I don't

Sara Ramsay:
hitting

Shari Ulrich:
think they

Sara Ramsay:
the middle?

Shari Ulrich:
touch. No, they don't touch. Oh, they might. I wonder if these two are touching each other.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, when you

Shari Ulrich:
I could

Sara Ramsay:
swing

Shari Ulrich:
take.

Sara Ramsay:
your head like that, it's not happening. So,

Shari Ulrich:
Okay.

Sara Ramsay:
nope, nope, that's,

Shari Ulrich:
Okay.

Sara Ramsay:
that's okay. So. Um, so you play a lot of different instruments. Um, so what, what, what

Shari Ulrich:
I do play. I'm not even...

Sara Ramsay:
are,

Shari Ulrich:
Okay,

Sara Ramsay:
what are,

Shari Ulrich:
well,

Sara Ramsay:
what

Shari Ulrich:
all

Sara Ramsay:
are they? List them off.

Shari Ulrich:
right. Well, you know about the violin. I picked up mandolin several years ago because it's tuned the same. And I love playing mandolin because it's very rhythmic. I love being able to like I'm not as good a rhythm guitar player as I am a rhythm mandolin player.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
Guitar, obviously, is one that I write on in dulcimer and piano.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
Piano is probably my second favorite to violin because I just, I love writing on piano and I love playing piano. I used to play, I still have a flute and I play it occasionally for, you know, special variety shows or something where a flute is needed.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
And I used to play alto sax, but

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
I foolishly sold it a long time ago. And I haven't found one that I like as much,

Sara Ramsay:
Huh?

Shari Ulrich:
It's a long trip to being a good sax player. So

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
I often joke that I go for quantity, not quality. Like I'm not a brilliant

Sara Ramsay:
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Shari Ulrich:
player on anything. I'm a very functional singer, songwriter, player, and I'm

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
an OK violinist. I know how to play within my skills and serve the song. So I,

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
which is to me, the the number one requirement musician if you are either accompanying a songwriter or being a song. It's always about serving the song, serving the music.

Sara Ramsay:
Preach.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah. So

Sara Ramsay:
Hehehe!

Shari Ulrich:
I've often and again, this could just be a justification for not practicing. But I feel like there's some bonus to being limited because I can't go off and be flashy. I mean, there's so many players that are all flash and no soul because they're just

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
trying to impress the audience as to how great they

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
are. And I don't have that option. So

Sara Ramsay:
Hehehehehehe

Shari Ulrich:
it means that I really have to, I just have to play within my skill set and insert the song. So, you know, I'm playing with Barney and Tom right now. So I play violin and mandolin and guitar and piano. But with that accompanying them, I mean, this is why I've had a career with with trios of other songwriters whose work I part of me and serve them in that way, which I just it's such an honor to do and to harmonize that three part harmony, as

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
you know,

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
is just the greatest. So I'm in the thick of that right now, or I just want to just like every every bit of my consciousness is about just feeding this song something that will make it even more beautiful and just hold it up like that.

Sara Ramsay:
I love that.

Shari Ulrich:
picked up any other, well, there'll be the tender guitar, it won't be the new one that I picked up.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah. That's very cool.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
So you have had the privilege of being able to work with your daughter and for a number of years now, you have

Shari Ulrich:
Yes.

Sara Ramsay:
created that privilege in your

Shari Ulrich:
I created

Sara Ramsay:
music.

Shari Ulrich:
an engineer and a musician to accompany me right there in my womb.

Sara Ramsay:
Do you want to talk about that whole

Shari Ulrich:
Oh,

Sara Ramsay:
working

Shari Ulrich:
God,

Sara Ramsay:
relationship?

Shari Ulrich:
yes, it's one of my favorite subjects. I knew that if I tried to make her be anything, that it would backfire terribly. So

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
I wanted her to have all her fingers in a brain. And then I just took her with me. I took her with me on the road constantly. And so she was always a part of that world. And she started violin when she was, or piano when she was four and violin when she was five, and played them until she went off to university. I mean, studied them, like had lessons until she went off to university.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
12, she started playing with me. So she violin and a little mandolin, I think mandolin might have come later, a little bit of guitar. And we she just had the ear. She was born with the ear that I was born with. She never really wanted to be like, I want to be on stage. Like she's like some musicians I know who they just they just want to play the music. And it's great that people want to hear them. But she's not a showman.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
and about six or months or a year or so into it after a few times of saying, it would be great if you want to sing harmonies. And she said, I will. I'm just not ready yet. And then one day she

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
said, OK, I'm ready. And I taught her

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm?

Shari Ulrich:
all the harmony parts and I never had to remind her of anything. She just nailed them all immediately. So she's got

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
she's great as a harmony singer in a group. And

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
yeah, so she went off to university and they started a choir, an a cappella choir, did all the arrangements. And when she just before, I think when she was in high school, when she asked to take a Pro Tools course for recording, she was just curious about it. So when she was in university, she did her undergrad in psychology and sound recording. And then she decided to go in and get her master's in sound recording, which is where she met her partner, James Perella. So they're both very, very busy. engineers. So she's working mostly in film and television as a music editor and

Sara Ramsay:
Hm?

Shari Ulrich:
he's the recording engineer for the VSO and the Victoria Symphony and at the Chan Center and the debaters. So they're both very busy in their fields and having

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
just great, great lives and great time doing it. But their real love is to record albums for artists. So when

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
she was in her second year of her master's she had an assignment to record an album for an artist. So she asked me if I wanted to do that. So of course I said yes. And so that was her,

Sara Ramsay:
Why

Shari Ulrich:
I

Sara Ramsay:
could

Shari Ulrich:
was

Sara Ramsay:
you not?

Shari Ulrich:
her, yeah, really. So I was her first recording project and it was a fantastic experience because she, there was so much we didn't have to say while we were recording

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
because she's so intuitive and she's been around music her whole life. So we didn't have to say, well, before the chorus, four bars before the, that like we both knew where we're going to go back to what we

Sara Ramsay:
Mmm.

Shari Ulrich:
so the lot very easy to work with. And then she went on to

Sara Ramsay:
I

Shari Ulrich:
record.

Sara Ramsay:
think too, with family, when you have that genetic piece that you've just

Shari Ulrich:
Oh.

Sara Ramsay:
grown for so many years doing music together, there is that intuitive ESP kind of

Shari Ulrich:
Yes,

Sara Ramsay:
piece.

Shari Ulrich:
absolutely.

Sara Ramsay:
My brother and I are like that in music, where there's just pieces that require no explanation or so like one word,

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, yeah. And you both go, oh yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
Instead

Shari Ulrich:
yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
of,

Shari Ulrich:
yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
it's just, it's so much fun working in that.

Shari Ulrich:
Yes, yes,

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
it

Sara Ramsay:
Anyway,

Shari Ulrich:
is.

Sara Ramsay:
continue.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought that up because that definitely has something to do with it. So she's she's less inclined to she used to do it just. Oh, I know. It's this piece of paper here that I'm bumping up against. I won't do

Sara Ramsay:
Maybe.

Shari Ulrich:
that anymore. So she is very busy with with her actual real job. So but she will go on the road with me when if when we have Cindy Fairbank playing piano or Kirby Barber, because

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
it's a little more fun than just being with mom. I mean, she's she's really spent way much more time with her mother and her father because she plays with her dad to David Graff

Sara Ramsay:
Really?

Shari Ulrich:
than any child should have to. I mean, she she wouldn't say it that way. But sometimes I think we're so lucky that we have so much of her in our lives. And to have that professional relationship with your with your offspring is it's very cool.

Sara Ramsay:
It

Shari Ulrich:
it.

Sara Ramsay:
is.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah. Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
So yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
that's

Shari Ulrich:
pretty

Sara Ramsay:
super

Shari Ulrich:
darn

Sara Ramsay:
cool.

Shari Ulrich:
proud. Oh, and then there's, as far as offspring go, there's the other little corner of it, which is that when she was 17, I found the son that I gave up for adoption when I was 16.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
And he is very musical. Music was not his path, he's an architect, but he, when we first found each other, the first concert I did that they were there, it was that I'd written an album that had a song about him and we were doing the CD release And he was gonna come up for it as he and his family So I said why I knew that he had played drums in high school so I said would you be interested in getting a cajon and Playing with us and he was totally keen learned all the songs has great feel so it was it was the day before Mother's Day and It was at the same venue st. James that for the rogue folk

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah?

Shari Ulrich:
club And so I was bookended by Julia and Mike the evening with me. It was just heaven. And so he

Sara Ramsay:
How cool

Shari Ulrich:
got

Sara Ramsay:
is

Shari Ulrich:
the

Sara Ramsay:
that?

Shari Ulrich:
musical genes and loves music and loves to play with us whenever he can. Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
That's very cool. Yeah, that's just

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
very cool. So you have been working consistently and successfully in the field of original music for almost 50 years. You've picked up a few trophies along the way. You have a star on Granville and Robson, done a couple of shows, Carole King's Tapestry and your own Baby Boomer Blues,

Shari Ulrich:
Yes, it wasn't my

Sara Ramsay:
hosted

Shari Ulrich:
own.

Sara Ramsay:
Blue...

Shari Ulrich:
It wasn't my own.

Sara Ramsay:
Oh,

Shari Ulrich:
But yeah, it was.

Sara Ramsay:
I misread that then.

Shari Ulrich:
No, that's OK.

Sara Ramsay:
The attribution.

Shari Ulrich:
That's OK. Yeah, it was by Vani Grindler. And oh, gosh, I'm forgetting the name of our company. Anyway, yes.

Sara Ramsay:
OK, so sorry, that was I misread the attribution there,

Shari Ulrich:
Thanks for watching.

Sara Ramsay:
but

Shari Ulrich:
Bye.

Sara Ramsay:
you did a couple of shows. You've hosted Bluebird North for 28 years. You've worked with a shit ton of other great artists along the way, and you've created this opportunity to work musically with your daughter. What do you think? So point being, I think that is indicative of a pretty a career that denotes a lot of longevity.

Shari Ulrich:
Yes.

Sara Ramsay:
career with longevity.

Shari Ulrich:
I think doing it because you love it so much

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
and doing it because you honor the music so much that it's less about your ego because there's lots of rejection. And I've just

Sara Ramsay:
Oh

Shari Ulrich:
learned

Sara Ramsay:
yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
early on that it's not a reflection of my value. And that helped. Like when I left the hometown band, MCA worldwide record release. It came out in Canada and then a week later when it was supposed to come out in the US, which would have been my big break,

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
the Irving Azoff came in as the new president and fired most of the A&R and dropped 80% of the artists, and I was one of them. So that was very career changing. And

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
when I was trying to get another record deal, I kept being rejected. And then I finally realized, Well, I don't look like a big moneymaker. Like I don't dress like the big, like that kind of star.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
But I knew that people loved my music and that I should continue to do it. And so that was the real corner where I realized that I had to take my value for myself and not by the opportunities that I got. And that helped because then it takes the suffering out of it.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
you might characterize what that feels like. So I just lost track of

Sara Ramsay:
longevity.

Shari Ulrich:
what the original question, longevity, thank you.

Sara Ramsay:
Ha!

Shari Ulrich:
Keep asking people to remind you what you're talking about. That helps. And being able to be as versatile as I've been, so that I can play with other people and be an accompanying musician

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
as well and a harmony singer. And I also learned to always say yes. I mean, unless I just felt it was something that, this is gonna sound terrible, but to say if it was beneath me somehow, or just something I wasn't going to enjoy.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
But I always would say yes. I always do say yes when it's something, especially if it scares me, like it's outside of my comfort

Sara Ramsay:
me.

Shari Ulrich:
zone, like Baby Boomer Blues or Tapestry, the theater stuff, or. Well, pretty much anything I'm asked to do, if it's outside of my experience, then I've learned to say yes, and it is never backfired. It's always

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
been a great challenging in the very positive sense of the word experience. So that has helped to say yes instead of no. I think sometimes it's easy to get very precious about your career. And and as I

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
said, I never take the where I am on a bill, if it's a festival or take any of that as a testament to whether to my value. And it makes it a lot easier. And it means I get a lot more opportunities because I

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
don't turn them down based on not being high enough in the bill or it being like some of the shows that we're doing on this tour, Barney Bentall can play to a 10,000 seat venue. But he

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
also understands the value of being in a

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
that moment with them, having that experience and sharing the music, the impact on them is visceral. And so they're

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
right there. And then they're so that's so nurturing as an artist and nurturing for the audience too. So, so knowing what is important about what I do and what we do. And then that's not about us. It's about having this great gift

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
and experience it.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, I love

Shari Ulrich:
And

Sara Ramsay:
that.

Shari Ulrich:
tuning up first, always tuning my

Sara Ramsay:
Oh,

Shari Ulrich:
instruments

Sara Ramsay:
God, yes.

Shari Ulrich:
first. There's a few things that I always want to say to this fledgling artists, tune your instrument, play in tune. Yeah. Very big.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah. Yeah. I remember seeing you play. This is, this just speaks to like the importance of something being in tune and, and that it, it really trumps everything else. And I don't know if this was a Bluebird North thing, or if this was actually like a concert that you did. This probably would have been 20 years ago or so, but you were playing something and you were going from one song into another. And it was this thing and like a long sustained note, and it was supposed to be this really

Shari Ulrich:
you

Sara Ramsay:
big heartfelt. I don't know if you were going into like house up on the hill or so. I don't know. It was something where it was like this moment of tension and you went into it and your violin, it wasn't quite in tune. And you stopped everything and you went, I'm sorry, this was supposed to be this great moment, but I can't do it. I have to tune. And you stopped and you tuned and you started it again.

Shari Ulrich:
Oh f-

Sara Ramsay:
And you know what? It was the right thing to do because it would have

Shari Ulrich:
Oh,

Sara Ramsay:
been

Shari Ulrich:
good.

Sara Ramsay:
awful to play the whole song

Shari Ulrich:
For the

Sara Ramsay:
out

Shari Ulrich:
whole

Sara Ramsay:
of

Shari Ulrich:
song.

Sara Ramsay:
tune.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I can't bear it. It's

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
just a thing.

Sara Ramsay:
I'm

Shari Ulrich:
And

Sara Ramsay:
with you on

Shari Ulrich:
I

Sara Ramsay:
that.

Shari Ulrich:
think a lot of times an audience

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
doesn't necessarily. Yeah, I think the audience doesn't necessarily notice that something is out of tune, but they'll just kind of feel like it's just kind of a sour feeling. And I

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
just.

Sara Ramsay:
yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
Number one.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, so I'm with you on that. It's better to stop and fix it than

Shari Ulrich:
Yes.

Sara Ramsay:
it is to continue on

Shari Ulrich:
Yes.

Sara Ramsay:
and just be bad the whole time.

Shari Ulrich:
Well, that is the secret to, I think, being a performer that people enjoy is just to

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
never to make light of everything and never

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
never think that you have to pretend that something bad isn't happening or

Sara Ramsay:
Great.

Shari Ulrich:
yeah, just do whatever you need to do and include them. And they love being

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
included. And they even

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
with whatever it is that you feel as long as you're not starting to swear. Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit about the songwriting piece of things? You've done a lot of work with the Songwriters Association of Canada, hosted Bluebird North for 28 years. You've taught songwriting workshops. I can't imagine a better person to talk about songwriting. So what do up-and-coming artists need to understand about the life of a song, both the creative and maybe the mechanical too, but from writing

Shari Ulrich:
Bye.

Sara Ramsay:
or co-writing, registering licensing onward, all the,

Shari Ulrich:
Whoa, that's

Sara Ramsay:
all the things.

Shari Ulrich:
a big subject. Okay,

Sara Ramsay:
I know it is,

Shari Ulrich:
well.

Sara Ramsay:
and you don't have to go, you know, crazy deep on it, but.

Shari Ulrich:
I'll start with some of my basic feelings about songwriting.

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm?

Shari Ulrich:
You know, we talk about verses and choruses and bridges and the structure of things. And the structure is there because human beings do like patterns. They respond really

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
well to patterns. And that's certainly true in music where you have an innate sense. You don't think of it logically as a listener, for it to rhyme, right? And when it does, there's something so satisfying about it. So I love the puzzle of that, that I find that words have their own musicality to them. So, you know, most people have heard the scrambled egg story about yesterday, the song yesterday, that first the word was scrambled eggs because it had the right feel to it. But then obviously, I had to find a better word for that. Because they have a rhythm to them, they have a the shape of them has a musicality to them and how they're sung. So often when I'm starting a song, I will sing nonsense words that have the right shape or just words that are real words, but they don't make any sense. And then eventually they start to find their way to the right word that starts to tell me what the song is about. And then it's more of a craftsmanship of serving the pattern. serving the rhyming scheme and finding the right words that will both tell the story, have the musicality, and rhyme where they need to rhyme, according

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
to me. It's not like it's a rule. It's just like a psychological, emotional thing that really satisfies us. But I still believe it to be, as the listener and also as the writer, it's a linear journey. But as you're listening ago, but as long as I never drop the listener, as long as at least that's my goal is to is to cast a spell from the very beginning and never break that spell till the end of

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
the song. And I don't know if that's helpful, but to pass on to other people. But it's certainly what I think is the reality of how it works.

Sara Ramsay:
I think it's very helpful.

Shari Ulrich:
And then there's things like, I've never written a sad song and used the word pain or sorrow or like, it's show don't tell, like

Sara Ramsay:
Huh?

Shari Ulrich:
creating a scene or a scenario like you would in a film where you don't know what's happening or what you're supposed to feel yet, but there's hints of it in how things look and what is being described. There's hints of what the mood is And then that allows the person to go there and feel the thing that you're leading them to feel instead of telling them This is what you're supposed to feel from this

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
if maybe

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
that's a bit too esoteric, but and I, when I wrote, went to LA for in the mid 80s to write for publishers. And, and I was, that's when I learned that there's a big difference between writing for yourself as an artist and writing for publishers, because they always say the singer is not going to want to put themselves in a bad light. So if you're writing a very self-deprecating song, nobody else is going to want to cover it. And it's questionable whether other people are going to want to hear it too. Cause again, it circles around so that might make them uncomfortable. I don't want to make them uncomfortable. There are other artists

Sara Ramsay:
Hm.

Shari Ulrich:
who that's their goal that they they, you know, they want to shake people up and they want to be on the edge and they want to be edgy. And that's great. So I'm really just speaking from my own sensibilities and yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I have in terms of the business and this is where I am going to be useless for you because I have I'm not completely useless but you know obviously I register all my songs with So Can. I have not pursued actively enough getting placements for those songs. In the last 10 years there's been so

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
And I am overwhelmed by it and every every week I think I'm gonna find somebody who will sort this out for me and help me get these

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
songs Registered in all the places that they should be registered Because it is important and the people that

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I know who are really good at it even when it comes to Spotify playlists, etc They do really well And as a matter of fact, you might want to have Helen Austin from the big little lions She's one of my favorite.

Sara Ramsay:
Okay.

Shari Ulrich:
It's a duo and she lives in Vancouver Island and he lives in Ohio and they have had this very successful duo Where they're only together when they're touring so all their whole creative life is done long distance And he does all the production and recording at what she records her parts and anyway very fascinating, but

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
she's very proactive and very savvy about all of this stuff and

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
She She's she's very inspiring that way and never misses an opportunity and has but is also just a lovely person and fantastic songwriter. I love her songwriting. Yeah. So there are people

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, I will definitely

Shari Ulrich:
who

Sara Ramsay:
check

Shari Ulrich:
who

Sara Ramsay:
that

Shari Ulrich:
get

Sara Ramsay:
out.

Shari Ulrich:
it. There are people who know how to do it.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
And so that would be winding back to your first question. What would I have done differently? I would have been more on top of that as

Sara Ramsay:
Ah,

Shari Ulrich:
much

Sara Ramsay:
okay.

Shari Ulrich:
as I is doing all the right things. So much more is required now. And of course, that's going against the fact that I'm 71 years old and I don't really wanna work in all that stuff. Like I'd rather really enjoy this last few decades, few

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
she says,

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
and not spend so much time with administration, which is so much of

Sara Ramsay:
Yes.

Shari Ulrich:
what a solo artist does anyway, self-managed.

Sara Ramsay:
That's totally fair.

Shari Ulrich:
So were there any gaps in there for

Sara Ramsay:
know,

Shari Ulrich:
some?

Sara Ramsay:
I think that you

Shari Ulrich:
for the list

Sara Ramsay:
covered

Shari Ulrich:
of things.

Sara Ramsay:
a great

Shari Ulrich:
Okay.

Sara Ramsay:
chunk of info there.

Shari Ulrich:
It's my second cup of coffee.

Sara Ramsay:
You did talk there about the difference between writing for yourself as an artist versus writing for a publisher is Is there a difference that you can speak to between solo writing and co-writing? Or is that a thing that you've

Shari Ulrich:
Well,

Sara Ramsay:
like,

Shari Ulrich:
only

Sara Ramsay:
I

Shari Ulrich:
in

Sara Ramsay:
mean, there are obviously different processes, but

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, only in the context of my reticence to be a co-writer, which is really not something I am proud of. And it's one of those things that has on the list of things that scare me that I haven't said an unqualified

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
yes to. And it's it's partly because well, I have no good, good excuse for it. Like it very well could be that if I had that all the way along that I could be way more successful than I am as a songwriter. That's quite possible. But from.

Sara Ramsay:
What could have said that? Who knows?

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, it's possible. But as a solo artist, I have felt that the one thing that we have, because it's very easy, especially with the glut of artists out there right now, it's very easy to think that other so much better than I am or or you know they have this great success with songs and you think you're going to have that but the only thing that you have oh I lost you should I assume

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, it's

Shari Ulrich:
you're

Sara Ramsay:
okay.

Shari Ulrich:
coming back

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, we're coming back.

Shari Ulrich:
I think I'll assume you're coming back

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I'm not sure.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, I can see you. I can hear you.

Shari Ulrich:
I think I should wait. Presumably you'll edit this. Well, I'm still being

Sara Ramsay:
I will,

Shari Ulrich:
recorded. So

Sara Ramsay:
yes.

Shari Ulrich:
OK.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, yeah, you are.

Shari Ulrich:
The one thing that we have over everyone else is that we are us. We are unique. And that's the one thing that I can always hang on to, that I will create something that is uniquely me. So I have had this sense that perhaps if I were to be writing with other people, water that down somehow.