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Sara Ramsay:
I am here today with Sherry Ulrich, who is originally a California girl. She settled on the West Coast of Canada in 1970 and soon launched her life in music. A singer, songwriter and multi-instrumentalist, she's been winning hearts across North America with her voice, sublime songs and onstage charisma ever since. From her time with the legendary Pied Pumpkin to the hometown band and on as a solo artist, resulted in 25 albums to date, including collaborations with Bill Henderson and Roy Forbes in UHF, Barney Bentall and Tom Taylor in BTU, and more recently, the Highbar Gang, a seven-plus piece bluegrass band with Barney Bentall and Colin Nairn. Along the way, she's garnered two Juno Awards and several nominations and induction into the BC Entertainment Hall of Fame and 2014 Canadian Folk Music Award the year. Sherry tours much of the year in a variety of configurations from solo to trio that includes her daughter Julia and fellow High Bar Gang member, Kirby Barber, to a quartet with pianist Cindy Fairbank and with a full band. Sherry also performs with BTU and the High Bar Gang and produces and hosts Vancouver's Songbird North series for 28 years for the Songwriters Association of Canada. An accomplished and dynamic performer, makes any sized audience feel that they are in her living room, I can attest to this, drawn in by her insightful lyrics and her engaging warmth and humor. So thank you so much Sherry for joining me today.

Shari Ulrich:
I am so happy to be here.

Sara Ramsay:
I'm really

Shari Ulrich:
I

Sara Ramsay:
excited.

Shari Ulrich:
am in Brad Creek, Alberta at Barney Bentall's sister's house because

Sara Ramsay:
Huh?

Shari Ulrich:
Barney and Tom and I are in the middle of a tour. So this

Sara Ramsay:
Nice.

Shari Ulrich:
is not my bedroom in case some of you are like really curious what my bedroom looks like. This is not it.

Sara Ramsay:
I am so excited to have you here today because I'm, I mean, I have to totally, um, out myself here. And like, I grew up listening to you. You were my number one play through all of my teen years. I didn't just like

Shari Ulrich:
Really?

Sara Ramsay:
know all your songs. I think I wanted to be you. Oh yeah. I went on iTunes because it's been a long time since I've listened and I went to find It was like your first probably three or four Records up sort of up to every road that the ones before that that was like my whole And I put on the first ones aren't on iTunes. I still have the cassettes though and I put on the

Shari Ulrich:
And a cassette

Sara Ramsay:
the compilation

Shari Ulrich:
player.

Sara Ramsay:
record that you have Well,

Shari Ulrich:
Right.

Sara Ramsay:
no, unfortunately, but on iTunes record you have and I can

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
still sing every song word for word.

Shari Ulrich:
Oh my God. Well, that must feel pretty good. Your memory still got it. Oh, that is

Sara Ramsay:
I

Shari Ulrich:
quite

Sara Ramsay:
can't remember

Shari Ulrich:
the imprint.

Sara Ramsay:
what I ate for breakfast,

Shari Ulrich:
Oh,

Sara Ramsay:
but...

Shari Ulrich:
wow.

Sara Ramsay:
very excited to have you

Shari Ulrich:
That

Sara Ramsay:
here today.

Shari Ulrich:
is so odd. That just warms my heart. That is so great to hear. I did not know. I mean, I always knew

Sara Ramsay:
Oh, yes.

Shari Ulrich:
you when you were younger

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah!

Shari Ulrich:
and growing up and stuff. But and then was quite impressed that you

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
became a singer. But I didn't know. Oh, give me

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
a big

Sara Ramsay:
the,

Shari Ulrich:
hug.

Sara Ramsay:
the, and the crossover goes back a fair way. I mean, my mom's saying on, so I think she sang with you at Expo and she sang, um, Bee Gees on, uh, at least some of the stuff on Every Road. Um,

Shari Ulrich:
Yes,

Sara Ramsay:
I don't know

Shari Ulrich:
yeah

Sara Ramsay:
if she's

Shari Ulrich:
she

Sara Ramsay:
saying

Shari Ulrich:
did.

Sara Ramsay:
on any of the other

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
stuff, but at least on that

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
record

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
and, um, and I babysat your daughter and

Shari Ulrich:
And

Sara Ramsay:
yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I had your brother

Sara Ramsay:
I babysat

Shari Ulrich:
on

Sara Ramsay:
Julia!

Shari Ulrich:
Bluebird. I had Josh on Bluebird

Sara Ramsay:
Bluebird

Shari Ulrich:
North

Sara Ramsay:
North?

Shari Ulrich:
when

Sara Ramsay:
That's

Shari Ulrich:
he was

Sara Ramsay:
right. Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
about

Sara Ramsay:
yeah, yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
14. Maybe he was very young.

Sara Ramsay:
Oh my gosh.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
So, do you want to flesh out your story briefly for our listeners who might be having their first experience with you and tell us a bit about who you are, your journey in the biz, how you got where you are today?

Shari Ulrich:
Wow, where to start? Okay. Well, I had always played, I played violin and took violin in grade school. So from grade

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
four on till high school, till grade nine. And we had a piano at home. I had a guitar. I loved music. And of course, the Beatles were huge. Joni Mitchell, all of the early seventies, late sixties, early seventies

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
bands and music was so big. in my life. My pink clock radio at the head of my bed was just the source

Sara Ramsay:
Hehehehe

Shari Ulrich:
of it all. And when I, let's see, I went off to, I ran away to Canada when I was 18, and I took my violin with me, but I was not thinking at all that music was my path. And I didn't, it was such a part of me, I didn't take that seriously as something to do. And, but I was certainly in my wandering years of trying to figure out what is, what am I supposed to do?

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
And then once I was in Vancouver for a while, I discovered that music was it, that this was actually something that I had a gift for, that I wasn't

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
starting from scratch. I had an ear, I had good instincts. So I started teaching myself piano and had my sister's flute with me, so I could play a bit of that. And then I met Rick Scott and Joe Mock and we formed the Pied Pumpkin, which was the

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm?

Shari Ulrich:
fun spirited group you could ever imagine with dulcimer and guitar and me on fiddle. I don't think I even played mandolin yet. And that was my formative time of learning that music, playing music is about being really present. Being so in the moment

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
because so much of my role was was the icing which was

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
just be present and that had a huge impact on me. Then I was lured away to the hometown band on the first tour as a sideman with Faldy and

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
Joe Mock had written the song Fear of Flying by then

Sara Ramsay:
Hm.

Shari Ulrich:
and we did one song a night as his backup band on that first big tour. Three thousand seat theatres, two shows a night all across the country, very heady time that I sang. So

Sara Ramsay:
Hm.

Shari Ulrich:
that was this, it was that song really that created an opportunity for me to have a career. And that

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
opportunity with Valdi to have that access to a Canadian audience to that degree. So we decided to make the hometown band be a band. We had a record deal with A&M, we made two records. as they often did in those days saying, we don't hear a hit. I decided, okay, now's my chance. I got to write a song, damn it. So I wrote a song called Feel Good on the dulcimer and it was a successful single. So that really affirmed for me that I should be a songwriter. And then the band dissolved

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
and it was a logical step for me to go solo. So I started writing my first three albums were my first 30 songs. Like I just, I've always

Sara Ramsay:
Wow

Shari Ulrich:
been a very goal oriented writer, like I write a song to go out into the world. I don't write eight songs and pick four of them to go out in the world.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
That's not something I'm proud of, necessarily. But, yeah, and then. And then

Sara Ramsay:
I know I'm just, I'm,

Shari Ulrich:
you suck

Sara Ramsay:
I'm

Shari Ulrich:
it.

Sara Ramsay:
fascinated by that because, you know, some people really talk about writing that you have to write so prolifically and then pare down as opposed to,

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
and I know, I do know you're not the only one. I know a couple of people who don't write that way. They write very goal oriented. It is, you know, they write what goes out into the world and they don't write a lot of extra.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, I think there's maybe

Sara Ramsay:
And it's just.

Shari Ulrich:
four or five songs that I have

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
not recorded because they just didn't quite make it for me. I mean, it doesn't mean that maybe I should have called more, written more, and maybe there would be better songs on those albums. I don't know. But that's just the way I roll. I don't come to writing easily. I'm not

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
somebody who just has started to communicate that way. And there's so much that else that goes on in having a career in music, so much that

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
pulls you every single day to feed and and push and organize and all of that, that it's very easy for songwriting to come last. So it comes to me when I have to do it, when I know that I can't sustain my career without putting on another album of music. But when I do when I do get to that place and then I can get to that creative place I know how to do that where I just shut

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
out everything else and I do what Elizabeth Gilbert says show up and it will Come and I start

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
showing up and it comes and I'm Love the process once I'm into it

Sara Ramsay:
That's a pretty fantastic skill to be able to be so specific about it, to be able to know that you have that relationship with your creativity that when you show up, it also shows up for you.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
You know, that's...

Shari Ulrich:
I don't have faith in that all the time until I finally show up

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
and it starts to come. As before that, I

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
always think, what if it doesn't? This is so hard. It's too hard.

Sara Ramsay:
Hahaha!

Shari Ulrich:
But it always does. It's just not that that interim period between, okay, I don't have to do this now. And when it does finally come is really painful. I hate

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
that part. But I do have faith that it's going to come.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah. So here on the vocal lab, the goal is to sort of shine a light into the industry through the lens of what I know now that I wish I'd known then.

Shari Ulrich:
Ohhhh

Sara Ramsay:
So with that in mind, if you were starting your career all over again, what, if anything, would you do differently?

Shari Ulrich:
Wow, my first thought is, I don't know that I would have done anything differently. But

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
the reality is I am not a worldwide success. I don't know that I made any poor choices. I'd love to know if other people think that I did. I had opportunities and I took them. but I definitely have come to a place where I am a firm believer that Big time fame is not fun I mean,

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
there's fun parts to it and the money is probably great you get special treatment But I think there's so many aspects to it where it's really hard to have a normal life It's hard to have normal interactions

Sara Ramsay:
Uh huh.

Shari Ulrich:
with people I mean we know what it all what it feels like if you meet somebody that you just oh my God, it's that person and you get incredibly

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
nervous and churned up and you might try and say something to them It's just it's not a pleasant feeling so to be on the recipient Receiving end of that where you'd love to just have a normal conversation with a stranger That's a big

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
loss. I think and I wouldn't

Sara Ramsay:
And I think

Shari Ulrich:
want to lose

Sara Ramsay:
you

Shari Ulrich:
that

Sara Ramsay:
stop being able to trust any relationships when you're at that

Shari Ulrich:
Oh, yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
level

Shari Ulrich:
it's just

Sara Ramsay:
of fame.

Shari Ulrich:
yeah, it's fraught with

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
a lot of stuff that is is not fun. And I don't say that as a way to feel OK about not being massively famous. I think it's a real thing. But I have

Sara Ramsay:
Agreed.

Shari Ulrich:
just the right amount where a

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
stranger will come up and say, I love you. Like,

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
how great is that?

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
And and

Sara Ramsay:
Really,

Shari Ulrich:
and be able

Sara Ramsay:
truly.

Shari Ulrich:
to share. Yeah, be able to share what the music is meant to them. Just very. comfortable doing it, you know, not feel that

Sara Ramsay:
Thank you.

Shari Ulrich:
they're just right there in front of me. I just, I love those exchanges. I've never not been okay financially through music. So I feel like I just have, and I have enough of a name that I can phone up presenters and I don't have to send them a bunch of demos to try and explain what I do.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
I mean, they know who I am, That has made it a very smooth and enjoyable life in music.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah. Yeah, I think.

Shari Ulrich:
I will

Sara Ramsay:
I

Shari Ulrich:
say

Sara Ramsay:
was

Shari Ulrich:
that.

Sara Ramsay:
just going to say, I think

Shari Ulrich:
So

Sara Ramsay:
we're having

Shari Ulrich:
you go.

Sara Ramsay:
a little digital lag here. I think

Shari Ulrich:
You go.

Sara Ramsay:
I was just going to say that I think that you've hit a beautiful sweet spot where, um, you, as you say, you're not at the place where you have to deal with all the negative pieces of big fame,

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
but you've been able to create your life I mean, as far as I know anyway, from the outside, it looks like support yourself entirely through the pursuit of original music.

Shari Ulrich:
Yes.

Sara Ramsay:
And that is a, I think that's an enormous thing to be proud of and an enormous gift to be able to live your life through the pursuit of your own original creativity and self-support that way. That's a

Shari Ulrich:
Absolutely,

Sara Ramsay:
huge success to me.

Shari Ulrich:
absolutely.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
But of course, we all have our relative. It doesn't matter where we are. We always have a relative sense of, oh, I should be doing better. I should be working harder.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
You know, there's a lot of shoulds. And I considering the fact that I believe that the music is all about getting it out to people, I would love for it to be out to the world without the accompanying

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
fame.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm, yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I will always feel I'll probably go to my grave feeling that I should have worked harder. I should have tried harder. I should have been more successful. I should have been bigger. But I'm somebody who lives more in the moment. So that makes my life very enjoyable, but there will always be that sort of overriding.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, that's the nature. I mean, that's how

Sara Ramsay:
Yep.

Shari Ulrich:
and why we strive too.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I'm pretty darn happy with how it's all rolled out.

Sara Ramsay:
And is there anything that we haven't already just covered in that, that factors into the question of what would you do the same all over again? Sort of the flip side of what would you do

Shari Ulrich:
Oh,

Sara Ramsay:
differently?

Shari Ulrich:
yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
What would you do the same?

Shari Ulrich:
Well, I always kept a sense of the fact that the music, that it's not about me. It's not about how good I am or how

Sara Ramsay:
I hear

Shari Ulrich:
great I am or whatever. It's about the music. And so

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I learned early on, and this might have come from the pumpkin even, but I certainly have felt it more and more as time's gone on, I feel I never feel like look at me, you know or or even have a great Degree of self-consciousness about the fact that I'm on stage It's more about Celebrating the music I'm giving them this experience of music that is a gift to me in the first place and And I'm just ever in awe of what music does for people and how it makes them feel how it makes me feel for society. It's just it's so magical and it's so powerful. So I have always felt in honor of that. I have felt like that is the thing to bear in mind and doing so also makes it a lot easier to be comfortable on stage.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
And that was the thing that I learned early on too was because in the hometown comfortable playing but it's a

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
weird like performing is a weird thing to do like you're doing

Sara Ramsay:
It

Shari Ulrich:
this

Sara Ramsay:
is.

Shari Ulrich:
thing that you you're making music which you love doing you love the music and people are watching you do it it's just it's

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
almost impossible not to I don't get nervous but it's impossible not to be anxious about that and have little voices going how do I look how do I sound what do they think of me you know have all that noise going on

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I was in the hometown band when I was fronting a band too. I was so uncomfortable talking to the audience because

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
those voices were so loud and I felt so insecure about anything I might say and I could feel the band's judgment about, you know, really a very strong front person here for us, this band of guys. But

Sara Ramsay:
Hehehehe

Shari Ulrich:
when after I had a band and was impaired it down to just a couple of players, I realized that I could just take myself stage. Like, I don't actually have to be anyone different

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
than this. Or in any way different than this. Just be who I am. And it was life-changing. It just makes performing so fun because there's just

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
no room for those voices. You're just being yourself like you would in any other situation with a little bit more finesse with an instrument. But yeah, I forget the original

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
question.

Sara Ramsay:
well,

Shari Ulrich:
But, oh, what would I do the same? Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
yeah, yeah, what would you do the same?

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, so

Sara Ramsay:
And,

Shari Ulrich:
it would.

Sara Ramsay:
and I've, you know, I saw you on stage recently. You did. Well, I wasn't there in person, but it was a streamed thing. Uh, it was a shared concert with you and Jane Mortify,

Shari Ulrich:
Oh

Sara Ramsay:
um,

Shari Ulrich:
yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
through

Shari Ulrich:
yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
the, um, last year, maybe

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, Rogue

Sara Ramsay:
the year

Shari Ulrich:
Folk

Sara Ramsay:
before,

Shari Ulrich:
Club.

Sara Ramsay:
I don't

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
know.

Shari Ulrich:
yeah, we did

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
a double bill.

Sara Ramsay:
that's the one.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
And, um, that was one of the things that struck me was just how easy and comfortable you are in your audience banter, in your funny and engaging and warm and there's, it's, I mean, what your bio says about how easy, you know, it's like you're being invited into your living room. That's really what it feels like.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Your stage Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
And that comes to from feeling so strongly that it's my main focus is to make sure the audience is comfortable. I never

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
want them to be uncomfortable. So I might have some mishap that inside I'm going, oh, shit. But

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I know if I make a joke out of it that they're not going to be uncomfortable. And that's my

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
job is to keep them comfortable.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
And it's

Sara Ramsay:
So

Shari Ulrich:
fun.

Sara Ramsay:
we, it really, really is fun. Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
So

Shari Ulrich:
as you know.

Sara Ramsay:
we are in an industry that sees widely varying levels of education when it comes to supplementing talent, some formal, some very self-taught. What did your musical education look like and how has that impacted your career? then.

Shari Ulrich:
Well, I did learn to read music from playing the violin, which was a very handy tool. I'm not a great

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
sight reader, but it does allow me to write charts for my songs

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
so that I can relay the songs in that form, which I think is a valuable tool.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
Sample and Michael Kreber or just other people who write charts and figuring out or Bill Rungi. But I did not have any other formal training. I've never had voice training.

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
Again, not something I'm proud of. I think I sang better when I was playing flute and saxophone because it allowed diaphragm and, you know, down here instead

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
of just all in my throat. And I did take violin lessons through the Pied Pumpkin era. I took violin lessons and

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
I have always felt and I think this happens to a lot of people. If you're not formally trained, it's easy to have a little voice that says you're you're not quite good enough or that that, you know, there's an insecurity that comes there.

Sara Ramsay:
Imposter syndrome.

Shari Ulrich:
Yes, yeah, I don't know if I've

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
had that, but I certainly am familiar with it in a lot of other arenas.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
But I do think I mean, I think the more more training, the better, the more education, the better. So this is really more of a glitch in my personality, that I'm somebody who doesn't want to stop and read the directions. I want to just put the thing together or whatever it is. Right. I just want to get to it. take that time. So that applies to pretty well everything I do. I just want to do it and I want to learn about it. I want to do it and then I'll have learned about it.

Sara Ramsay:
I think that, I mean, don't get me wrong. I think music education is super valuable and I certainly was, I feel like that was a blessing in my life that I had lots of music education and partly just growing up in the family that I did. And then I did go to school, you know, up at CAP and did a bunch, I didn't quite finish, but I did a bunch of my jazz degree All of that. So I, you know, I did a fair, I do have a fair bit of education. However, I also really recognize that in the field of contemporary music, you know, pop, rock, folk, that, those genres, it's different than if you're trying to work in like musical theater or opera or classical music just as a whole. really go either way. But there are some fields where you really, really have to have a formal education because you have to be able to read to do

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
your job.

Shari Ulrich:
oh yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
And there are some fields where if you are someone who is naturally gifted and have a great ear, and you pick up a lot of stuff by ear, the formal education isn't necessarily so required. And so I don't know that I see that as a, you know, a negative thing. It's just a thing.

Shari Ulrich:
yeah No It's a bonus

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
if you have it. I think the only time that it can get in the way is with classical players. If they don't have, if they've never played by ear, if they've only ever

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
read music, then I think that that kind of education can be a bit of a hindrance, although they might not feel it as such if they're never in that situation where, but I think of music as more about it being more fluid other than writing a song and having lyrics and having structure to a song, the performance of it can be quite fluid and arrangement can be all over the place

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
and give it different colors, et cetera. But I,

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
so I think those are the only situations where a trained, a very highly trained person who's never done any improvising would be really intimidated by it and

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
kind of miss out on that part of the experience. But otherwise there's so many examples. Donnie Mitchell is one of them has no way of analyzing what she does. She just does it. And

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I have noticed when I first started writing, for instance, on piano. And I hadn't had any formal training on piano and didn't. I had grown up with one. So I'd listen to my sister's lessons and then I'd go and remember

Sara Ramsay:
Thank

Shari Ulrich:
what

Sara Ramsay:
you.

Shari Ulrich:
she played by ear. But a lot of it was happy accidents. I just put my hands on the keyboard. And if it sounded good, that combination of fingers, then I'd remember where they

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
could repeat it. And I think that my songwriting had a bit more adventurous flair because of that. Because now 45 years, 50 years later, I have patterns, you know, my hands, whether it's on guitar or piano. And I think a lot of songwriters can sort of veer off into not realizing that they're repeating those patterns and their songs start

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
to have very similar changes and things like that. So that's why I like to pick up an instrument sometimes that I don't don't know how to play because then there's lots

Sara Ramsay:
Yep.

Shari Ulrich:
of happy accidents and then you follow that and see where it leads you.

Sara Ramsay:
I started playing guitar for exactly that reason, because I grew up playing piano. And I mean, I was never any, any pro piano player or anything, but I, you know, I played well enough, certainly well

Shari Ulrich:
Right.

Sara Ramsay:
enough as a, to self accompany and do that.

Shari Ulrich:
Right.

Sara Ramsay:
But I found myself writing the same stuff over and over again, ostensibly. And so I got a guitar and what was great was I didn't have to learn music all over again. had to learn

Shari Ulrich:
Right.

Sara Ramsay:
how to apply it to a new instrument, how to apply it in a different way under my fingers. And it was exactly that. You found shapes that I liked, and I didn't even know how to name the chords, but I liked the way it sounded

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
and I could slide

Shari Ulrich:
didn't matter.

Sara Ramsay:
my hands up and down. And

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
so I started writing very different things. And I think that

Shari Ulrich:
But.

Sara Ramsay:
can be so useful it's never with the intent to get good enough at it to

Shari Ulrich:
No.

Sara Ramsay:
be a performer on that instrument, even if it's

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
only ever as a writing tool, can be so

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
useful. Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I have had something come up in my life that was completely unexpected in that I wanted to I got curious about a tenor guitar. Just thought not something I'd like to get a tenor

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
guitar. And a fellow out of the blue contacted me from Craven Tenor Guitars. He only makes tenor guitars because he

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
really believes in for people by having all six strings that they should have a shot at playing guitar. So he contacted me about having a Sherry Ulrich signature tenor guitar. So they're being

Sara Ramsay:
So cool.

Shari Ulrich:
manufactured right now and they're sweet little instruments and I can't wait. I've got the prototype but I don't have the actual issued one yet. But it's really been an that myself.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I was just thrilled to get that I might get a free tenor guitar.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah!

Shari Ulrich:
This is perfect, but it's blossomed into more than that. But for the same reason, because a tenor guitar, I'm used to a dulcimer, which is usually tuned in a modal way and doesn't have all the frets. It's just a diatonic scale. So it has its limitations, but I love the simplicity of it. And I love the happy accidents that happen when you change tunings. excited about this chapter of my writing to have this new tool that has a bit of more impetus and that the more songs I can create on it and share the more I'll be supporting the Craven Sherry Ulrich tenor guitar.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah!

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah so very cool and and I'm always a big fan of picking up instruments that are new.

Sara Ramsay:
very... so what is a tenor... I'm actually not familiar with a tenor guitar.

Shari Ulrich:
Well,

Sara Ramsay:
What

Shari Ulrich:
it's

Sara Ramsay:
is different

Shari Ulrich:
it technically,

Sara Ramsay:
about that?

Shari Ulrich:
I believe I should know this, but I'm pretty sure it's the top four strings of the guitar

Sara Ramsay:
Okay.

Shari Ulrich:
and not the bottom four. And then but there are different tunes. You can tune it like I would a mandolin and fiddle, which are both tuned the same and this so I could tune it that way as well. So you can change it around. And of course, every time you change the tuning, then your fingers are doing different things chords.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
So it's really exciting as a writing tool, but it'll have, I'll probably put strings that are an octave lower or something lower like higher gauge strings and to give it a little bit more body so that it's good for a self accompanied performance

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
live. Yeah, have a little bit more richness to it. Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
And before we keep going, I'm actually just gonna, all right, you have your earbuds in, yes?

Shari Ulrich:
I do. Am

Sara Ramsay:
Is

Shari Ulrich:
I

Sara Ramsay:
that,

Shari Ulrich:
wrestling?

Sara Ramsay:
yeah. Well, yeah, something is clicking a fair bit, and so I don't know if

Shari Ulrich:
on

Sara Ramsay:
something

Shari Ulrich:
your fifth.

Sara Ramsay:
is hitting them.

Shari Ulrich:
It might be my hair.

Sara Ramsay:
I can't I can't think that it would be your hair doing it, but anyway,

Shari Ulrich:
Well, this

Sara Ramsay:
I just

Shari Ulrich:
is where

Sara Ramsay:
wanted

Shari Ulrich:
the mics

Sara Ramsay:
to.

Shari Ulrich:
are.

Sara Ramsay:
True

Shari Ulrich:
I wonder

Sara Ramsay:
just

Shari Ulrich:
if I'm.

Sara Ramsay:
in case there's anything we can do to

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, thanks.

Sara Ramsay:
minimize it that.

Shari Ulrich:
I'm using it as a mirror there.

Sara Ramsay:
Hehehehe

Shari Ulrich:
I could, I have a clip right here. I can tie my hair back too, if you think that's,

Sara Ramsay:
Well,

Shari Ulrich:
is that

Sara Ramsay:
we

Shari Ulrich:
clicking?

Sara Ramsay:
can try it for a... Nope, that's... I don't think it's your hair. I...

Shari Ulrich:
Oh, it wasn't there. I wonder what I'm doing.

Sara Ramsay:
I don't think

Shari Ulrich:
OK.

Sara Ramsay:
so.

Shari Ulrich:
All right.

Sara Ramsay:
Are your earrings...

Shari Ulrich:
I'll be conscious of it.

Sara Ramsay:
do you have earrings

Shari Ulrich:
No,

Sara Ramsay:
that are

Shari Ulrich:
I don't

Sara Ramsay:
hitting

Shari Ulrich:
think they

Sara Ramsay:
the middle?

Shari Ulrich:
touch. No, they don't touch. Oh, they might. I wonder if these two are touching each other.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, when you

Shari Ulrich:
I could

Sara Ramsay:
swing

Shari Ulrich:
take.

Sara Ramsay:
your head like that, it's not happening. So,

Shari Ulrich:
Okay.

Sara Ramsay:
nope, nope, that's,

Shari Ulrich:
Okay.

Sara Ramsay:
that's okay. So. Um, so you play a lot of different instruments. Um, so what, what, what

Shari Ulrich:
I do play. I'm not even...

Sara Ramsay:
are,

Shari Ulrich:
Okay,

Sara Ramsay:
what are,

Shari Ulrich:
well,

Sara Ramsay:
what

Shari Ulrich:
all

Sara Ramsay:
are they? List them off.

Shari Ulrich:
right. Well, you know about the violin. I picked up mandolin several years ago because it's tuned the same. And I love playing mandolin because it's very rhythmic. I love being able to like I'm not as good a rhythm guitar player as I am a rhythm mandolin player.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
Guitar, obviously, is one that I write on in dulcimer and piano.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
Piano is probably my second favorite to violin because I just, I love writing on piano and I love playing piano. I used to play, I still have a flute and I play it occasionally for, you know, special variety shows or something where a flute is needed.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
And I used to play alto sax, but

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
I foolishly sold it a long time ago. And I haven't found one that I like as much,

Sara Ramsay:
Huh?

Shari Ulrich:
It's a long trip to being a good sax player. So

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
I often joke that I go for quantity, not quality. Like I'm not a brilliant

Sara Ramsay:
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Shari Ulrich:
player on anything. I'm a very functional singer, songwriter, player, and I'm

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
an OK violinist. I know how to play within my skills and serve the song. So I,

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
which is to me, the the number one requirement musician if you are either accompanying a songwriter or being a song. It's always about serving the song, serving the music.

Sara Ramsay:
Preach.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah. So

Sara Ramsay:
Hehehe!

Shari Ulrich:
I've often and again, this could just be a justification for not practicing. But I feel like there's some bonus to being limited because I can't go off and be flashy. I mean, there's so many players that are all flash and no soul because they're just

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
trying to impress the audience as to how great they

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
are. And I don't have that option. So

Sara Ramsay:
Hehehehehehe

Shari Ulrich:
it means that I really have to, I just have to play within my skill set and insert the song. So, you know, I'm playing with Barney and Tom right now. So I play violin and mandolin and guitar and piano. But with that accompanying them, I mean, this is why I've had a career with with trios of other songwriters whose work I part of me and serve them in that way, which I just it's such an honor to do and to harmonize that three part harmony, as

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
you know,

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
is just the greatest. So I'm in the thick of that right now, or I just want to just like every every bit of my consciousness is about just feeding this song something that will make it even more beautiful and just hold it up like that.

Sara Ramsay:
I love that.

Shari Ulrich:
picked up any other, well, there'll be the tender guitar, it won't be the new one that I picked up.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah. That's very cool.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
So you have had the privilege of being able to work with your daughter and for a number of years now, you have

Shari Ulrich:
Yes.

Sara Ramsay:
created that privilege in your

Shari Ulrich:
I created

Sara Ramsay:
music.

Shari Ulrich:
an engineer and a musician to accompany me right there in my womb.

Sara Ramsay:
Do you want to talk about that whole

Shari Ulrich:
Oh,

Sara Ramsay:
working

Shari Ulrich:
God,

Sara Ramsay:
relationship?

Shari Ulrich:
yes, it's one of my favorite subjects. I knew that if I tried to make her be anything, that it would backfire terribly. So

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
I wanted her to have all her fingers in a brain. And then I just took her with me. I took her with me on the road constantly. And so she was always a part of that world. And she started violin when she was, or piano when she was four and violin when she was five, and played them until she went off to university. I mean, studied them, like had lessons until she went off to university.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
12, she started playing with me. So she violin and a little mandolin, I think mandolin might have come later, a little bit of guitar. And we she just had the ear. She was born with the ear that I was born with. She never really wanted to be like, I want to be on stage. Like she's like some musicians I know who they just they just want to play the music. And it's great that people want to hear them. But she's not a showman.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
and about six or months or a year or so into it after a few times of saying, it would be great if you want to sing harmonies. And she said, I will. I'm just not ready yet. And then one day she

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
said, OK, I'm ready. And I taught her

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm?

Shari Ulrich:
all the harmony parts and I never had to remind her of anything. She just nailed them all immediately. So she's got

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
she's great as a harmony singer in a group. And

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
yeah, so she went off to university and they started a choir, an a cappella choir, did all the arrangements. And when she just before, I think when she was in high school, when she asked to take a Pro Tools course for recording, she was just curious about it. So when she was in university, she did her undergrad in psychology and sound recording. And then she decided to go in and get her master's in sound recording, which is where she met her partner, James Perella. So they're both very, very busy. engineers. So she's working mostly in film and television as a music editor and

Sara Ramsay:
Hm?

Shari Ulrich:
he's the recording engineer for the VSO and the Victoria Symphony and at the Chan Center and the debaters. So they're both very busy in their fields and having

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
just great, great lives and great time doing it. But their real love is to record albums for artists. So when

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
she was in her second year of her master's she had an assignment to record an album for an artist. So she asked me if I wanted to do that. So of course I said yes. And so that was her,

Sara Ramsay:
Why

Shari Ulrich:
I

Sara Ramsay:
could

Shari Ulrich:
was

Sara Ramsay:
you not?

Shari Ulrich:
her, yeah, really. So I was her first recording project and it was a fantastic experience because she, there was so much we didn't have to say while we were recording

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
because she's so intuitive and she's been around music her whole life. So we didn't have to say, well, before the chorus, four bars before the, that like we both knew where we're going to go back to what we

Sara Ramsay:
Mmm.

Shari Ulrich:
so the lot very easy to work with. And then she went on to

Sara Ramsay:
I

Shari Ulrich:
record.

Sara Ramsay:
think too, with family, when you have that genetic piece that you've just

Shari Ulrich:
Oh.

Sara Ramsay:
grown for so many years doing music together, there is that intuitive ESP kind of

Shari Ulrich:
Yes,

Sara Ramsay:
piece.

Shari Ulrich:
absolutely.

Sara Ramsay:
My brother and I are like that in music, where there's just pieces that require no explanation or so like one word,

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, yeah. And you both go, oh yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
Instead

Shari Ulrich:
yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
of,

Shari Ulrich:
yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
it's just, it's so much fun working in that.

Shari Ulrich:
Yes, yes,

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
it

Sara Ramsay:
Anyway,

Shari Ulrich:
is.

Sara Ramsay:
continue.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought that up because that definitely has something to do with it. So she's she's less inclined to she used to do it just. Oh, I know. It's this piece of paper here that I'm bumping up against. I won't do

Sara Ramsay:
Maybe.

Shari Ulrich:
that anymore. So she is very busy with with her actual real job. So but she will go on the road with me when if when we have Cindy Fairbank playing piano or Kirby Barber, because

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
it's a little more fun than just being with mom. I mean, she's she's really spent way much more time with her mother and her father because she plays with her dad to David Graff

Sara Ramsay:
Really?

Shari Ulrich:
than any child should have to. I mean, she she wouldn't say it that way. But sometimes I think we're so lucky that we have so much of her in our lives. And to have that professional relationship with your with your offspring is it's very cool.

Sara Ramsay:
It

Shari Ulrich:
it.

Sara Ramsay:
is.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah. Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
So yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
that's

Shari Ulrich:
pretty

Sara Ramsay:
super

Shari Ulrich:
darn

Sara Ramsay:
cool.

Shari Ulrich:
proud. Oh, and then there's, as far as offspring go, there's the other little corner of it, which is that when she was 17, I found the son that I gave up for adoption when I was 16.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
And he is very musical. Music was not his path, he's an architect, but he, when we first found each other, the first concert I did that they were there, it was that I'd written an album that had a song about him and we were doing the CD release And he was gonna come up for it as he and his family So I said why I knew that he had played drums in high school so I said would you be interested in getting a cajon and Playing with us and he was totally keen learned all the songs has great feel so it was it was the day before Mother's Day and It was at the same venue st. James that for the rogue folk

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah?

Shari Ulrich:
club And so I was bookended by Julia and Mike the evening with me. It was just heaven. And so he

Sara Ramsay:
How cool

Shari Ulrich:
got

Sara Ramsay:
is

Shari Ulrich:
the

Sara Ramsay:
that?

Shari Ulrich:
musical genes and loves music and loves to play with us whenever he can. Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
That's very cool. Yeah, that's just

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
very cool. So you have been working consistently and successfully in the field of original music for almost 50 years. You've picked up a few trophies along the way. You have a star on Granville and Robson, done a couple of shows, Carole King's Tapestry and your own Baby Boomer Blues,

Shari Ulrich:
Yes, it wasn't my

Sara Ramsay:
hosted

Shari Ulrich:
own.

Sara Ramsay:
Blue...

Shari Ulrich:
It wasn't my own.

Sara Ramsay:
Oh,

Shari Ulrich:
But yeah, it was.

Sara Ramsay:
I misread that then.

Shari Ulrich:
No, that's OK.

Sara Ramsay:
The attribution.

Shari Ulrich:
That's OK. Yeah, it was by Vani Grindler. And oh, gosh, I'm forgetting the name of our company. Anyway, yes.

Sara Ramsay:
OK, so sorry, that was I misread the attribution there,

Shari Ulrich:
Thanks for watching.

Sara Ramsay:
but

Shari Ulrich:
Bye.

Sara Ramsay:
you did a couple of shows. You've hosted Bluebird North for 28 years. You've worked with a shit ton of other great artists along the way, and you've created this opportunity to work musically with your daughter. What do you think? So point being, I think that is indicative of a pretty a career that denotes a lot of longevity.

Shari Ulrich:
Yes.

Sara Ramsay:
career with longevity.

Shari Ulrich:
I think doing it because you love it so much

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
and doing it because you honor the music so much that it's less about your ego because there's lots of rejection. And I've just

Sara Ramsay:
Oh

Shari Ulrich:
learned

Sara Ramsay:
yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
early on that it's not a reflection of my value. And that helped. Like when I left the hometown band, MCA worldwide record release. It came out in Canada and then a week later when it was supposed to come out in the US, which would have been my big break,

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
the Irving Azoff came in as the new president and fired most of the A&R and dropped 80% of the artists, and I was one of them. So that was very career changing. And

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
when I was trying to get another record deal, I kept being rejected. And then I finally realized, Well, I don't look like a big moneymaker. Like I don't dress like the big, like that kind of star.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
But I knew that people loved my music and that I should continue to do it. And so that was the real corner where I realized that I had to take my value for myself and not by the opportunities that I got. And that helped because then it takes the suffering out of it.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
you might characterize what that feels like. So I just lost track of

Sara Ramsay:
longevity.

Shari Ulrich:
what the original question, longevity, thank you.

Sara Ramsay:
Ha!

Shari Ulrich:
Keep asking people to remind you what you're talking about. That helps. And being able to be as versatile as I've been, so that I can play with other people and be an accompanying musician

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
as well and a harmony singer. And I also learned to always say yes. I mean, unless I just felt it was something that, this is gonna sound terrible, but to say if it was beneath me somehow, or just something I wasn't going to enjoy.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
But I always would say yes. I always do say yes when it's something, especially if it scares me, like it's outside of my comfort

Sara Ramsay:
me.

Shari Ulrich:
zone, like Baby Boomer Blues or Tapestry, the theater stuff, or. Well, pretty much anything I'm asked to do, if it's outside of my experience, then I've learned to say yes, and it is never backfired. It's always

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
been a great challenging in the very positive sense of the word experience. So that has helped to say yes instead of no. I think sometimes it's easy to get very precious about your career. And and as I

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
said, I never take the where I am on a bill, if it's a festival or take any of that as a testament to whether to my value. And it makes it a lot easier. And it means I get a lot more opportunities because I

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
don't turn them down based on not being high enough in the bill or it being like some of the shows that we're doing on this tour, Barney Bentall can play to a 10,000 seat venue. But he

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
also understands the value of being in a

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
that moment with them, having that experience and sharing the music, the impact on them is visceral. And so they're

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
right there. And then they're so that's so nurturing as an artist and nurturing for the audience too. So, so knowing what is important about what I do and what we do. And then that's not about us. It's about having this great gift

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
and experience it.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, I love

Shari Ulrich:
And

Sara Ramsay:
that.

Shari Ulrich:
tuning up first, always tuning my

Sara Ramsay:
Oh,

Shari Ulrich:
instruments

Sara Ramsay:
God, yes.

Shari Ulrich:
first. There's a few things that I always want to say to this fledgling artists, tune your instrument, play in tune. Yeah. Very big.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah. Yeah. I remember seeing you play. This is, this just speaks to like the importance of something being in tune and, and that it, it really trumps everything else. And I don't know if this was a Bluebird North thing, or if this was actually like a concert that you did. This probably would have been 20 years ago or so, but you were playing something and you were going from one song into another. And it was this thing and like a long sustained note, and it was supposed to be this really

Shari Ulrich:
you

Sara Ramsay:
big heartfelt. I don't know if you were going into like house up on the hill or so. I don't know. It was something where it was like this moment of tension and you went into it and your violin, it wasn't quite in tune. And you stopped everything and you went, I'm sorry, this was supposed to be this great moment, but I can't do it. I have to tune. And you stopped and you tuned and you started it again.

Shari Ulrich:
Oh f-

Sara Ramsay:
And you know what? It was the right thing to do because it would have

Shari Ulrich:
Oh,

Sara Ramsay:
been

Shari Ulrich:
good.

Sara Ramsay:
awful to play the whole song

Shari Ulrich:
For the

Sara Ramsay:
out

Shari Ulrich:
whole

Sara Ramsay:
of

Shari Ulrich:
song.

Sara Ramsay:
tune.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I can't bear it. It's

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
just a thing.

Sara Ramsay:
I'm

Shari Ulrich:
And

Sara Ramsay:
with you on

Shari Ulrich:
I

Sara Ramsay:
that.

Shari Ulrich:
think a lot of times an audience

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
doesn't necessarily. Yeah, I think the audience doesn't necessarily notice that something is out of tune, but they'll just kind of feel like it's just kind of a sour feeling. And I

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
just.

Sara Ramsay:
yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
Number one.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, so I'm with you on that. It's better to stop and fix it than

Shari Ulrich:
Yes.

Sara Ramsay:
it is to continue on

Shari Ulrich:
Yes.

Sara Ramsay:
and just be bad the whole time.

Shari Ulrich:
Well, that is the secret to, I think, being a performer that people enjoy is just to

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
never to make light of everything and never

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
never think that you have to pretend that something bad isn't happening or

Sara Ramsay:
Great.

Shari Ulrich:
yeah, just do whatever you need to do and include them. And they love being

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
included. And they even

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
with whatever it is that you feel as long as you're not starting to swear. Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah. Do you want to talk a little bit about the songwriting piece of things? You've done a lot of work with the Songwriters Association of Canada, hosted Bluebird North for 28 years. You've taught songwriting workshops. I can't imagine a better person to talk about songwriting. So what do up-and-coming artists need to understand about the life of a song, both the creative and maybe the mechanical too, but from writing

Shari Ulrich:
Bye.

Sara Ramsay:
or co-writing, registering licensing onward, all the,

Shari Ulrich:
Whoa, that's

Sara Ramsay:
all the things.

Shari Ulrich:
a big subject. Okay,

Sara Ramsay:
I know it is,

Shari Ulrich:
well.

Sara Ramsay:
and you don't have to go, you know, crazy deep on it, but.

Shari Ulrich:
I'll start with some of my basic feelings about songwriting.

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm?

Shari Ulrich:
You know, we talk about verses and choruses and bridges and the structure of things. And the structure is there because human beings do like patterns. They respond really

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
well to patterns. And that's certainly true in music where you have an innate sense. You don't think of it logically as a listener, for it to rhyme, right? And when it does, there's something so satisfying about it. So I love the puzzle of that, that I find that words have their own musicality to them. So, you know, most people have heard the scrambled egg story about yesterday, the song yesterday, that first the word was scrambled eggs because it had the right feel to it. But then obviously, I had to find a better word for that. Because they have a rhythm to them, they have a the shape of them has a musicality to them and how they're sung. So often when I'm starting a song, I will sing nonsense words that have the right shape or just words that are real words, but they don't make any sense. And then eventually they start to find their way to the right word that starts to tell me what the song is about. And then it's more of a craftsmanship of serving the pattern. serving the rhyming scheme and finding the right words that will both tell the story, have the musicality, and rhyme where they need to rhyme, according

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
to me. It's not like it's a rule. It's just like a psychological, emotional thing that really satisfies us. But I still believe it to be, as the listener and also as the writer, it's a linear journey. But as you're listening ago, but as long as I never drop the listener, as long as at least that's my goal is to is to cast a spell from the very beginning and never break that spell till the end of

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
the song. And I don't know if that's helpful, but to pass on to other people. But it's certainly what I think is the reality of how it works.

Sara Ramsay:
I think it's very helpful.

Shari Ulrich:
And then there's things like, I've never written a sad song and used the word pain or sorrow or like, it's show don't tell, like

Sara Ramsay:
Huh?

Shari Ulrich:
creating a scene or a scenario like you would in a film where you don't know what's happening or what you're supposed to feel yet, but there's hints of it in how things look and what is being described. There's hints of what the mood is And then that allows the person to go there and feel the thing that you're leading them to feel instead of telling them This is what you're supposed to feel from this

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
if maybe

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
that's a bit too esoteric, but and I, when I wrote, went to LA for in the mid 80s to write for publishers. And, and I was, that's when I learned that there's a big difference between writing for yourself as an artist and writing for publishers, because they always say the singer is not going to want to put themselves in a bad light. So if you're writing a very self-deprecating song, nobody else is going to want to cover it. And it's questionable whether other people are going to want to hear it too. Cause again, it circles around so that might make them uncomfortable. I don't want to make them uncomfortable. There are other artists

Sara Ramsay:
Hm.

Shari Ulrich:
who that's their goal that they they, you know, they want to shake people up and they want to be on the edge and they want to be edgy. And that's great. So I'm really just speaking from my own sensibilities and yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I have in terms of the business and this is where I am going to be useless for you because I have I'm not completely useless but you know obviously I register all my songs with So Can. I have not pursued actively enough getting placements for those songs. In the last 10 years there's been so

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
And I am overwhelmed by it and every every week I think I'm gonna find somebody who will sort this out for me and help me get these

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
songs Registered in all the places that they should be registered Because it is important and the people that

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I know who are really good at it even when it comes to Spotify playlists, etc They do really well And as a matter of fact, you might want to have Helen Austin from the big little lions She's one of my favorite.

Sara Ramsay:
Okay.

Shari Ulrich:
It's a duo and she lives in Vancouver Island and he lives in Ohio and they have had this very successful duo Where they're only together when they're touring so all their whole creative life is done long distance And he does all the production and recording at what she records her parts and anyway very fascinating, but

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
she's very proactive and very savvy about all of this stuff and

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
She She's she's very inspiring that way and never misses an opportunity and has but is also just a lovely person and fantastic songwriter. I love her songwriting. Yeah. So there are people

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, I will definitely

Shari Ulrich:
who

Sara Ramsay:
check

Shari Ulrich:
who

Sara Ramsay:
that

Shari Ulrich:
get

Sara Ramsay:
out.

Shari Ulrich:
it. There are people who know how to do it.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
And so that would be winding back to your first question. What would I have done differently? I would have been more on top of that as

Sara Ramsay:
Ah,

Shari Ulrich:
much

Sara Ramsay:
okay.

Shari Ulrich:
as I is doing all the right things. So much more is required now. And of course, that's going against the fact that I'm 71 years old and I don't really wanna work in all that stuff. Like I'd rather really enjoy this last few decades, few

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
she says,

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
and not spend so much time with administration, which is so much of

Sara Ramsay:
Yes.

Shari Ulrich:
what a solo artist does anyway, self-managed.

Sara Ramsay:
That's totally fair.

Shari Ulrich:
So were there any gaps in there for

Sara Ramsay:
know,

Shari Ulrich:
some?

Sara Ramsay:
I think that you

Shari Ulrich:
for the list

Sara Ramsay:
covered

Shari Ulrich:
of things.

Sara Ramsay:
a great

Shari Ulrich:
Okay.

Sara Ramsay:
chunk of info there.

Shari Ulrich:
It's my second cup of coffee.

Sara Ramsay:
You did talk there about the difference between writing for yourself as an artist versus writing for a publisher is Is there a difference that you can speak to between solo writing and co-writing? Or is that a thing that you've

Shari Ulrich:
Well,

Sara Ramsay:
like,

Shari Ulrich:
only

Sara Ramsay:
I

Shari Ulrich:
in

Sara Ramsay:
mean, there are obviously different processes, but

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, only in the context of my reticence to be a co-writer, which is really not something I am proud of. And it's one of those things that has on the list of things that scare me that I haven't said an unqualified

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
yes to. And it's it's partly because well, I have no good, good excuse for it. Like it very well could be that if I had that all the way along that I could be way more successful than I am as a songwriter. That's quite possible. But from.

Sara Ramsay:
What could have said that? Who knows?

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, it's possible. But as a solo artist, I have felt that the one thing that we have, because it's very easy, especially with the glut of artists out there right now, it's very easy to think that other so much better than I am or or you know they have this great success with songs and you think you're going to have that but the only thing that you have oh I lost you should I assume

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, it's

Shari Ulrich:
you're

Sara Ramsay:
okay.

Shari Ulrich:
coming back

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, we're coming back.

Shari Ulrich:
I think I'll assume you're coming back

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I'm not sure.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, I can see you. I can hear you.

Shari Ulrich:
I think I should wait. Presumably you'll edit this. Well, I'm still being

Sara Ramsay:
I will,

Shari Ulrich:
recorded. So

Sara Ramsay:
yes.

Shari Ulrich:
OK.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, yeah, you are.

Shari Ulrich:
The one thing that we have over everyone else is that we are us. We are unique. And that's the one thing that I can always hang on to, that I will create something that is uniquely me. So I have had this sense that perhaps if I were to be writing with other people, water that down somehow.

So I'm gonna take from that then, if co-writing isn't your favorite, that the, like the trio things, like UHF and things like that, that you guys all came together with your own solo written songs as opposed to writing together and then just performed them all together, yeah?

Shari Ulrich:
That's correct. Yeah, we've

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
always done a lot of arranging together

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
Which is a very fun part of it, but no we have not go written Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
OK.

Shari Ulrich:
and as I said,

Sara Ramsay:
Well.

Shari Ulrich:
it's not it's not something I'm the least bit proud of I feel like I'm a wuss But it hasn't it hasn't been Well, I guess there's been the odd offer but always like hypothetically not like

Sara Ramsay:
Right.

Shari Ulrich:
here we are with our instruments Let's go, right? I would say no in that situation. I did a little bit with Bruce Miller. Just remembering

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
this a little bit with Bruce Miller. I'm I'm I find the creative process is a little scary to me.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
And so to do that in front of and with someone else. But I have a feeling that it's all depends on who it is. And if it were the right

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
person, I'm so comfortable with with so many of my peers. And I do find it's easy to get comfortable with people. So it probably wouldn't be a problem I'm just going against

Sara Ramsay:
I

Shari Ulrich:
everything

Sara Ramsay:
think

Shari Ulrich:
I said about saying yes

Sara Ramsay:
that you're talking yourself into a co-write situation.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
But I think that I understand what you're saying, that the process of creativity is actually, can be a very vulnerable one. And

Shari Ulrich:
Yes.

Sara Ramsay:
so to open yourself up to do that in the presence of anybody else, I understand the there because that's, it's a very vulnerable situation so it's not, some people get very good at doing it and it becomes very, I don't know, business-like to do it. It's just,

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
well and for some people that is what they do. They just professionally

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
co-write

Shari Ulrich:
yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
for

Shari Ulrich:
it's

Sara Ramsay:
publishers

Shari Ulrich:
like anything

Sara Ramsay:
and that kind

Shari Ulrich:
else.

Sara Ramsay:
of thing.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Right, but I think for people who primarily write for themselves, that is a kind of vulnerability because we're typically writing our own stories.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
So opening that up to participate with somebody else, that's, yeah, that's, that

Shari Ulrich:
You

Sara Ramsay:
has

Shari Ulrich:
just...

Sara Ramsay:
to be the really right situation.

Shari Ulrich:
You just triggered another songwriting story in that

Sara Ramsay:
Great.

Shari Ulrich:
and there's been a few of the workshops that I've done where there will be somebody who presents a song and you're not really sure what it's about or what they're trying to say. And we'll say, so what is it song about and what are you trying to say? And they'll tell this incredible story with many

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
layers and depth. vulnerability and you say that, write that, that's the song

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
to write. That there's, there can be a sense of thinking that it has to be very obscure so that you're not really saying what you, what the experience was that you're writing from. Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
I think people don't necessarily, like from an audience point of view, I think people don't necessarily understand that writers are, depending how they write, basically singing their diary to you, right? Like they're opening up and singing to you about their potentially most vulnerable moments, the

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
hardest pieces of their lives. and other things as well. But a lot of what we end up writing about is the hard stuff. And sometimes it can feel too vulnerable to just simply say that outright. Sometimes it feels

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
a little

Shari Ulrich:
oh yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
safer to cloak that in some metaphor. So it's not

Shari Ulrich:
Oh, yeah, no,

Sara Ramsay:
quite

Shari Ulrich:
it needs

Sara Ramsay:
so

Shari Ulrich:
to be

Sara Ramsay:
much.

Shari Ulrich:
cloaked. It does need

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
to be cloaked. But sometimes it's easy to go too far so that

Sara Ramsay:
Too

Shari Ulrich:
the

Sara Ramsay:
far.

Shari Ulrich:
person doesn't know what you're saying and therefore can't feel something from what you're writing.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, yeah. So how do you approach the concept of storytelling in your writing? Um,

Shari Ulrich:
Oh,

Sara Ramsay:
around connecting to your audience and storytelling?

Shari Ulrich:
yeah, I don't have a particular way of doing it, I don't think. But I try and walk that line. But for though, I think my favorite example of this is a song called A Bit of Forgiveness, which is on my last album. And it's about coming together with someone that you have been apart from for a long time. figuring out what happened and how you got there. So there's nothing about that conversation except in the very last verse where I say, I'm so glad that you called after all of the pride after the fall. We found our way through the trees. Anyway, so it winds it up that way. But the rest are images. We took a trip to the edge. We could see all the pieces. No, sorry, I can never recite lyrics. into the song. But I try and find that sweet spot where I'm. Portraying a scene to allow, as I said before, to allow the person to sort of go there too, and then to start to feel what it is that you are describing without very specifically describing it. It's hard. You know,

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
I've never tried to articulate how to describe what that sweet spot is. exists. I do collect phrases, interesting phrases and words that I like the sound of them or the meaning of them that I think would fit in a song.

Sara Ramsay:
Uh huh.

Shari Ulrich:
I'm kind of digressing here, but the other thing that I, another tool that I tell people is to make sure that they preserve the natural shape of the language. So it's the way, so a phrase and a word

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
has the accent where have it and say it. It's a small thing, but it's just one of the things that allows it to flow. Because again, I think of it as a spell that we're casting. And we're on this journey with the song and the story. And you don't necessarily want to be so prescriptive and descriptive that you're saying exactly what the person, what you want them to see and feel. So walking that line where you're imply emotions and let them apply it to their own story. But I

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
don't know how to describe doing that.

Sara Ramsay:
That's fair. That's fair. But I think that the piece around syntax is important. I talk to students about that actually fairly regularly. If they bring in a song that they've been working on and when you put the emphasis on the wrong syllable,

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
it does, I always say, how would you speak it? Because

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
if you're emphasizing the wrong thing, it takes you out of the magic of the

Shari Ulrich:
Exactly.

Sara Ramsay:
story that you're in.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
In a movie we call it, or a book, or whatever, you call it the suspension of disbelief, right? And as soon as you put the emphasis in the wrong place or you cut the phrase in the wrong way and it takes it out of the natural speech patterns, it takes you out of that magic

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, exactly.

Sara Ramsay:
of being in the story.

Shari Ulrich:
Right,

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
right. Which is what I always say, have been saying, is you break the spell that you've cast.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
exactly.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Okay. So if we're talking about storytelling, I have to ask the song, Bad, Bad Girl. Is that about your relationship with the music industry?

Shari Ulrich:
it, no, it's my relationship with creativity.

Sara Ramsay:
Okay.

Shari Ulrich:
And and it's funny because I was so green that that was perhaps my second song or third song that I'd written.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
And it was only years later that I realized that, of course, it would be taken as a, you know, a naughty girl kind of thing. Right. And that, in fact, what I was saying is that that you're that you carry those voices from. it that way at the time, even to myself. But in analyzing it after it was about the childhood voice that says, you're you're not working hard enough or you're you're

Sara Ramsay:
Yep.

Shari Ulrich:
you. So it was about feeling that I had this success

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm?

Shari Ulrich:
and that I needed to be that it would be very easy to just enjoy life. And oh, God, I have to think of the lyrics now. dance, I barter with freedom and time. I give up duty for one more

Sara Ramsay:
I'd

Shari Ulrich:
chance

Sara Ramsay:
give up

Shari Ulrich:
to

Sara Ramsay:
the

Shari Ulrich:
make

Sara Ramsay:
duty

Shari Ulrich:
that

Sara Ramsay:
for

Shari Ulrich:
freedom

Sara Ramsay:
one more chance

Shari Ulrich:
mine.

Sara Ramsay:
to make that freedom mine.

Shari Ulrich:
Oh, yeah, I should ask you, you'd remember. I know it looks so easy. Everything has its price. Yeah, feeling like I was getting this sort of an easy ride, but that

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
I could not have it without doing buckling down and doing the hard creative work. And and my tendency to avoid that hard creative work. There you go again, shaking your finger, trying to make me face this lingering feeling I've got. Yeah, that's sort of self-like because we're so hard on ourselves all the time.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I mean, I was kind of ahead of my time with the self-talk. We're trying to talk about the downfall of the self-talk and the negative self-talk.

Sara Ramsay:
Well, and I think as creative people, it's, it's not unlike, um, entrepreneur, like people who are entrepreneurs, actually, as

Shari Ulrich:
Yes.

Sara Ramsay:
opposed to going in and working a nine to five job. That's what I'm talking about where the work is never done. There's always something to be done. There's always that feeling of like something on your shoulder that, that needs to be done. That's not complete yet. It always feels like you should be doing more. You're not finished yet. There's you're not working hard enough. You're not whatever when you're an entrepreneur.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
It always feels like there's more work to do. You haven't gotten enough done. There's you don't get to clock out at the end of the day. There's parallels there.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
And yeah, it's sort of the curse of it all, but it's also the fact that we are so fortunate to have

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
lives that we are directing ourselves and get to have so much creativity and so much reward and interactions with others and all of that stuff. Do I deserve this? You know, this

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
has

Sara Ramsay:
yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
been a fantastic life. And I was feeling that even in the beginning, you know, even four or five years in feeling like, wow, this is I know this looks like it's just a great ride that I'm on. But I know that there's really that I have to work really hard.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So earlier in your career, like your first few records were certainly the production part of it. I think, honestly, I think your songwriting can sit in either kind of production throughout. But the production in the earlier part of your career was more like pop kind

Shari Ulrich:
Oh

Sara Ramsay:
of

Shari Ulrich:
yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
production.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
And through your career, it has shifted into more of the folk spectrum, right?

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
the course of time.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Do you want to talk about that transition and sort of what drove that

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
change?

Shari Ulrich:
yeah, that's a great question. In the beginning with the first three albums where they were major label deals. And so Claire Lawrence, my producer, knew that he had to try and walk that line of honoring me as an artist, which I was just figuring out what that was and who I was, and giving the record company something that they wanted, something that they

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
would feel was going to make that they could get radio play and make the money. So that it was and it was the times and it was the 80s.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
So there was or late late 70s early 80s So that was the kind of you know There was so much less leeway as to what was put out into the world because you couldn't record an album without a record deal nobody did

Sara Ramsay:
Right.

Shari Ulrich:
and and So you were very tied to what the record label thought would make money I didn't feel I was know who I was yet as an artist.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
Um, and fortunately, because Claire was so wise and intuitive, I would write songs like songs like Oh Daddy, or maybe even She Remember Us, but definitely Oh Daddy, or I'm Not the One. Um, they were songs that I just wrote on the side while I was writing for the record that just came out. And Claire was wise enough. Oh Daddy was a perfect example. those were my real song. Those were who I was as an artist.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
And he did not question that they were gonna go on the album.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
And so that really set me on a course of realizing that I needed to honor that part of me as a writer. So when I didn't have a record deal anymore and I was on my own, I didn't have to take that into consideration like what was gonna be, happy that they could sell well. I mean, I knew I wanted it to be successful and be played, but and then along the way, one of those albums I produced all on my own. Clare produced me for several of them. And even when I was doing on my own, he would sort of co-produce and be a great comfortable with having my own ideas and realizing them in terms of production,

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
the more organic they've become. But of course, the times have changed too, and so many things. I mean, there's lots of extremes, of course, in production and styles of music, but in singer-songwriter styles of music and the kind of shows that I do live, having it more stripped down. Although,

Sara Ramsay:
No, but

Shari Ulrich:
Okay, I'll have to get

Sara Ramsay:
that

Shari Ulrich:
that

Sara Ramsay:
is

Shari Ulrich:
to you.

Sara Ramsay:
on my, okay, yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
it's

Shari Ulrich:
yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
on

Shari Ulrich:
So there's a

Sara Ramsay:
my

Shari Ulrich:
couple

Sara Ramsay:
list

Shari Ulrich:
on there

Sara Ramsay:
for.

Shari Ulrich:
that are rockier.

Sara Ramsay:
Okay.

Shari Ulrich:
And those aren't the ones that I end up playing live or that end up being requested.

Sara Ramsay:
Meow.

Shari Ulrich:
It's usually the more heartfelt ones. I mean, I always feel

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
like I should have balance on a recording of some up tunes, not having an old album of ballads.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
to me and I don't know how to make them as deep, I guess.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, I understand

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
that.

Shari Ulrich:
So that transition was definitely purely because of going from having a major label deal to being an independent. Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah. and Let's talk about the realities of life on tour, because you've spent a lifetime on tour, right?

Shari Ulrich:
Yes, I have.

Sara Ramsay:
Yes, you have. And

Shari Ulrich:
All different ways too, yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
yeah, and it really has an impact on your body and your voice. And I think from afar, it can look quite glamorous.

Shari Ulrich:
Yes, it can and it probably can be like, you know, there's an upper echelon

Sara Ramsay:
Great!

Shari Ulrich:
of artists who if they don't make themselves Stupidly sick with drugs and drink they can have a pretty healthy cushy life on the road

Sara Ramsay:
Right.

Shari Ulrich:
But and the level that I've done it that way not with the drugs in the drink But I've done

Sara Ramsay:
I'm gonna go to bed.

Shari Ulrich:
it that way and I've done it by myself in the car with the dog I mean,

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I've done the whole gamut and right now it's usually flying to somewhere else and renting a van and touring from there. I find I love being on the road. I

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
love being in new areas. I love going out for a walk, which I'm going to do as soon as we're done here in this beautiful

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
rural Alberta. And I love the routine of it. Like which is ironic because there is none really unless you're on the road or maybe in the recording studio for a week long

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
I Had it when I taught at UBC and I had a regular schedule and a regular paycheck. I love that

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
But otherwise the only time you get it is is on the road and I really thrive on that I like to know what my I know the critical path from the show What I need to do to to be ready to go and not be in a hurry and all that stuff.

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
I Don't find it too hard physically Although I don't eat as well as I do at home. It's hard to find get enough vegetables on the road

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
Harder

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
take some real intention I'm not great at Specifically looking after my voice. I've and I

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
don't say that proudly again I'm not setting myself as an example except a bad example.

Sara Ramsay:
Do you have any sort of any sort of routine around your voice and

Shari Ulrich:
No,

Sara Ramsay:
and performance?

Shari Ulrich:
no,

Sara Ramsay:
No,

Shari Ulrich:
I don't. And I know I should.

Sara Ramsay:
that is what it is

Shari Ulrich:
Well, and I think that I'm coming around to needing that again, because I'm not playing a wind instrument that keeps me sort of

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
trained to sing from farther down. I find myself wishing that I had a few more tricks if my voice starts to get tired during a show. And

Sara Ramsay:
Right.

Shari Ulrich:
I will say that the one thing that I've had to stop doing is hanging out with the crowd in any way in between sets. Because talking, or even after a show, if I've got a string of shows, because talking in a loud room is the worst. You think you're talking like we're talking here,

Sara Ramsay:
It

Shari Ulrich:
but

Sara Ramsay:
sure

Shari Ulrich:
really you're yelling

Sara Ramsay:
is.

Shari Ulrich:
the entire time. So I've had to just bow out of those, unfortunately.

Sara Ramsay:
Yep.

Shari Ulrich:
I try and build days off.

Sara Ramsay:
That is great self care actually.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, and it's hard to

Sara Ramsay:
Free

Shari Ulrich:
do

Sara Ramsay:
voice.

Shari Ulrich:
because it's fun and you want to be,

Sara Ramsay:
I know.

Shari Ulrich:
you know, you want to be engaging. But or sometimes if I can't actually get away, get away, I'll go to some corner and I'll say to the person I want to keep, I'd love to keep talking to, can we go over here where it's quieter and just sort

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
of control what's happening to me a bit better than just thinking that I can't.

Sara Ramsay:
The other thing I tell students to do when they're prepping to go on the road and be in that situation night after night after night is be a much better listener.

Shari Ulrich:
Oh, that's

Sara Ramsay:
So

Shari Ulrich:
good.

Sara Ramsay:
ask a question and let them talk because really what your audience, I think a lot of the time what they want is for you to know them. That's like

Shari Ulrich:
Yes,

Sara Ramsay:
so

Shari Ulrich:
that's

Sara Ramsay:
exciting

Shari Ulrich:
absolutely

Sara Ramsay:
if you get

Shari Ulrich:
true.

Sara Ramsay:
to know them.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
them do the loud talking.

Shari Ulrich:
That's

Sara Ramsay:
It's

Shari Ulrich:
very,

Sara Ramsay:
easier on

Shari Ulrich:
very

Sara Ramsay:
your voice.

Shari Ulrich:
smart.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
It's funny, just as we're talking now, I'm getting croaky. Why is that? Excuse

Sara Ramsay:
Power

Shari Ulrich:
me.

Sara Ramsay:
of suggestion. Well, if, uh,

Shari Ulrich:
I should

Sara Ramsay:
if

Shari Ulrich:
um...

Sara Ramsay:
you, if you ever want a few warmups, we can, we can talk about it.

Shari Ulrich:
I was just going to say that. Yes, I should

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
get some hints. It's time for me to take, because I want to be able, I mean, the only thing that's going to keep me from, or make me stop is if something happens to my voice or

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
my, well, not even necessarily my hands, because I could still, I could use accompanists,

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
or my brain.

Sara Ramsay:
yeah, yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
Those are the

Sara Ramsay:
yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
three things. So I have control over two of those.

Sara Ramsay:
Yep.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
You've collaborated with a lot of artists over the years, and that had

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
to come from a place of like community, and you've spoken to it a bit today, community and mutual respect and support as opposed to competition. And this is one of the questions that I tend to ask most of the guests that come on the show. And that has to do with the fact that I think the music industry is perceived to be a very competitive industry, is. And like almost without fail, everybody that I have on the show talks about the fact that their actual experience is one that is so much more like community based and respect and support based within the musical community. So do you want to just speak to that and and you know around how within the

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
music

Shari Ulrich:
that's

Sara Ramsay:
world,

Shari Ulrich:
very interesting.

Sara Ramsay:
music community.

Shari Ulrich:
I definitely have come at it, especially with having done Songbird North and Bluebird North for so many years. I love, and I present shows for friends and friends who are on tour and I know

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
they can come have a sleepover because the theater's right behind my house and it's not my theater but

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
because I love to give back to the community. I mean even though that's not an artist who has presented me there are many people out there who have presented me

Sara Ramsay:
Right.

Shari Ulrich:
and I'm so grateful to them so it's my way of giving back. So I have always felt that without trying. I've always felt this sense of, especially now. I really want to do this as much as possible with people.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
Oh, I lost the other thread. But I have never felt a sense of competition, although there's no doubt that when, especially if somebody's up and coming or I mean, I'm very judgmental about who should have opportunities and who shouldn't. defined as competitive. But I feel like when I think of being competitive, I think of wanting something over somebody else getting it. And I again,

Sara Ramsay:
Right.

Shari Ulrich:
I keep rolling back to I know that with, for instance, with a festival, they have so many considerations, they have, you know, sexual

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
balance, people who demand too much. I mean, there's just so many things that they're trying to balance. So if I don't make the cut, I don't think, oh, I guess I'm not good enough. Or but I might

Sara Ramsay:
Right.

Shari Ulrich:
see somebody who I actually don't think is very good, but there's a lot of buzz about them for some reason. I might feel a little,

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
but

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
doesn't take me anywhere. So just let it go. But I have found that the music community, and maybe It has been more increasingly that way. I think since everything is so much more sort of organic and people are recording their own albums and

Sara Ramsay:
Yep.

Shari Ulrich:
everybody's doing things very independently, but there are also organizations that create that community that are helpful. Yeah. I think that's all

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I have to say on that subject.

Sara Ramsay:
Okay, very good.

Shari Ulrich:
But I would love to be the person who got to determine who got all the opportunities. I wouldn't necessarily always be me, but if I wanna be that person, I do find that there's an element sometimes of, it's gonna sound really, maybe I shouldn't even say it. Sometimes I feel, as soon as you say that, you know that you're obligated to say it.

Sara Ramsay:
Ha!

Shari Ulrich:
That sometimes audiences can be a little, it can be a little cheap sometimes. bombastic

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
or really big in their presentation or loud or harsh or holds a note for three minutes. They just, yeah. And that doesn't do it for

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
me. I really like authenticity. I like to see an artist who is, who is being who they are authentically and not trying will grow into that and some of them won't. I don't know. And there's a market

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
for everything. That's the other thing. Apparently,

Sara Ramsay:
That's

Shari Ulrich:
I

Sara Ramsay:
true.

Shari Ulrich:
should not be

Sara Ramsay:
That's

Shari Ulrich:
the judge

Sara Ramsay:
very true.

Shari Ulrich:
because I do have my taste and my taste is not the same as everybody's. So I'm going to let go of that idea.

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching! Is there anything you see that is often missed or misunderstood by artists or writers in the great wild west of

Shari Ulrich:
Wow.

Sara Ramsay:
the music community?

Shari Ulrich:
I don't think so. I think audiences are very sophisticated now in their, I do think that they're hungry for authenticity and they like to be comfortable, they like to laugh, they like to hear stories that reflect their stories. And I think they're very forgiving in that they don't demand somebody performer. They also, they're very giving and supportive of people who are perhaps more shy or more vulnerable. I think that's fantastic. And the second half of the question was

Sara Ramsay:
Missed or misunderstood by artists or writers.

Shari Ulrich:
Uhhh... I don't think so. I mean, I do keep winding back to wanting artists to not take themselves so seriously as being the most important

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
part of the equation. And partly for their own peace of mind because it's way more fun when you don't, when you see yourself in a healthy perspective. business where to get up on stage and feel worthy of having that focus from an audience. And it's kind of the soft version of what happens when if you're crazy famous, because we all have the same level of relative level of insecurity. So somebody who's wildly successful is just as I think that

Sara Ramsay:
Right.

Shari Ulrich:
I call it for myself, I call it the Kurt Cobain syndrome where the disparity between how they're being treated and idolized compared to how they feel internally is a chasm

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
that can be a pit to fall into. And so I think that the soft version of that can be how disorienting it can be to take that your precious songs and, and this music that you love and want to share and get on almost impossible not to have these voices going because all these people

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
are watching you and so sort of this perfect storm of self sense of self worth and sense of value and all of that stuff. So it can be really confusing and hard on people. And it's actually just making me realize maybe that's part of what I can contribute at this point in my life

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
and take this person that when they're sitting in their room writing their song and feeling that sense of comfort that they can learn to take that onto the stage and shut up the noisy voices.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I mean, it's never perfect. You never completely shut them out for sure. But my feeling when I get on stage now is I'm just so, so happy,

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
so happy to be there. And

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
that's the overriding sensation. I like seeing people's faces. I don't want it to be just dark and me in the lights. I want to see their faces. I don't care if they're falling asleep. I understand. I fall asleep in that audience too. But I want to see them. I want to have that energy be, I hate to sound hippie dippy, but I find like raked seating where there's sort of a wall of people in front of you, that those are

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
the best shows. And I feel like it's cause you're putting this energy out and it's like a wall, like the waves. surf and it comes

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
right back to you. So it can be when you get to that place where you're free of all those negative voices and feel really confident in your what you're giving and the value of the music that you're sharing and that that's the value. It's not you. You're not so great. It's this thing that that isn't between you that you're sharing and that you're all saying, oh, music. Amazing. I just love that so much. Ugh.

Sara Ramsay:
I

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
think that that's fascinating that you like to see the people in the audience. Because

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
to

Shari Ulrich:
Barney

Sara Ramsay:
me,

Shari Ulrich:
and Tom

Sara Ramsay:
I'm...

Shari Ulrich:
don't really like to.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, I mean, I love being on stage. There's no place in the world that feels so much like home to me as being on, that's the only way I can describe it is it like,

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
it feels

Shari Ulrich:
this is a great

Sara Ramsay:
everything in the

Shari Ulrich:
way

Sara Ramsay:
world

Shari Ulrich:
to be.

Sara Ramsay:
feels right

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
when I'm on stage.

Shari Ulrich:
Right.

Sara Ramsay:
But I like knowing there's lots of audience out there but I like them on the other side of the lights. So I like a sense of the people,

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Don't get nervous if it's that, if that's the setup. But if it's a small group of people in a well-lit room and I can see all of them, I fucking hate it.

Shari Ulrich:
Or definitely

Sara Ramsay:
It'll make

Shari Ulrich:
very

Sara Ramsay:
me

Shari Ulrich:
different.

Sara Ramsay:
just want to throw up. And especially if I know them, that's the worst.

Shari Ulrich:
Oh,

Sara Ramsay:
Like

Shari Ulrich:
yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
if

Shari Ulrich:
that's

Sara Ramsay:
it's a performance situation

Shari Ulrich:
yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
and it's a group of people and I can see them all and I know them and they're fucking musicians.

Shari Ulrich:
Oh yeah, that I can definitely get a lot of this when I know that there's musicians. Okay,

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
so yesterday

Sara Ramsay:
a lot of

Shari Ulrich:
we played,

Sara Ramsay:
internal chatter.

Shari Ulrich:
we played basically a house concert, but it's a purpose built home that a musician here who built my violin

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
actually, Chris Sandboss, built specifically to have concerts. And it's like a cathedral, it's just so beautiful. He can fit about 113 people

Sara Ramsay:
Wow.

Shari Ulrich:
in there. So they're packed in, And there's windows. It was very bright for the audience and for us.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
And I loved it so much. I thought this is my favorite thing in the world, which is your least favorite thing in the world. And I didn't actually... Barn knew a lot of people in the audience. I did. But I did know that this is a family of phenomenal musicians. So when I was playing my violin, I was self-conscious. That part was, oh, God.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I don't know, anyway.

Sara Ramsay:
There is the thing about playing in front of other musicians that you because I think that we we know what we do. We know how we judge other musicians

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
and therefore we expect that they are doing the same to us and they probably are.

Shari Ulrich:
I think somehow

Sara Ramsay:
That's

Shari Ulrich:
and

Sara Ramsay:
to me. That's why it's so nerve wracking.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think I've just made such good friends with my limitations and

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
knowing that I am not, I am not a world class player in terms of actual skill on my instrument. So I'm I'm I'm OK with that now. So

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
it's it's but on the violin is different because I want to be better on the violin and I know I could be better on the

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
violin. So there is some self-consciousness there. It's fascinating, isn't it? I mean, I do find that the whole thing

Sara Ramsay:
It

Shari Ulrich:
of

Sara Ramsay:
is.

Shari Ulrich:
performing is, it's just not something people normally do. I mean, there's public speaking. If I'm speaking, doing public speaking, that's nerve wracking. I find that nerve wracking.

Sara Ramsay:
There's been a huge shift for me in terms of speaking over

Shari Ulrich:
Oh

Sara Ramsay:
the

Shari Ulrich:
good.

Sara Ramsay:
last, I don't know, maybe five years or so, where it used to be the thing that made me want to vomit more than anything else in the entire world. Like, public speaking was

Shari Ulrich:
Oh,

Sara Ramsay:
just

Shari Ulrich:
well.

Sara Ramsay:
the worst thing I could imagine. And I don't know, I've done a fair bit of teaching over the last, I don't know, you know, five to ten years, sort of classroom situations where I've had to be in front of a group of people. And yes, it was a subject where I knew what I was talking about, but it is a form of public speaking. And my relationship with it has completely done a 180. And now I actually love it,

Shari Ulrich:
Oh, cool.

Sara Ramsay:
which I never expected

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
ever, ever

Shari Ulrich:
it's not

Sara Ramsay:
did

Shari Ulrich:
great.

Sara Ramsay:
I expect it.

Shari Ulrich:
Well, that's very inspirational because we think that whatever we feel or whatever we feel limited by is always going to be thus. But it's not true. We

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
do change. We do evolve. Thank goodness.

Sara Ramsay:
We do indeed. We do. So especially being someone who plays so many different things and sings and you've worked with a lot of people, what's the most unexpected way you've used your talents in the course of your career?

Shari Ulrich:
Wow.

Sara Ramsay:
Ha!

Shari Ulrich:
I know I'm going to come up with the perfect answer after we finish. I guess in theater, singing and dancing

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
and in tapestry, tapestry didn't have dialogue. But there was a lot of choreography.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
Oh, well... There have been many offshoots. And

Sara Ramsay:
Yep.

Shari Ulrich:
this this might seem I mean, this is just such a big subject. But I got very involved in the. Restorative justice movement,

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
having been a victim of crime, a victim of sexual assault and stabbing

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
when I was sort of in some ways at a at a peak in terms of public notoriety. did not want to be quiet about it having, is, you know, one paper

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
reported that I had been injured and another one had reported that an unnamed woman had been raped and stabbed. And this is on Salt Spring Island, right? So I knew that the public would put it together, but in those days they did not publish the names of rape victims. And I felt that I did, this was not my shame. And I felt that it was important for

Sara Ramsay:
Mmm.

Shari Ulrich:
women that it was not I was not targeted it wasn't that he didn't know who I was and I wanted

Sara Ramsay:
Mm.

Shari Ulrich:
women to to be more aware than I was and because there were moments where I could have listened to my instincts and did anyway I wanted to be able to talk about it

Sara Ramsay:
Mm.

Shari Ulrich:
so

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
I was honest and and shared that and I have always talked about it when it was appropriate I didn't think today was

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
but it turns

Sara Ramsay:
There you go. Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
There

Sara Ramsay:
absolutely.

Shari Ulrich:
you go. So I was asked several times to talk at judicial conferences because I would imagine at that time it was harder to hear from the perspective of victims. And I became a huge, I mean restorative justice was just one of the things that was coming to the fore in that era. But I felt what my experience had been with the judicial system. And the most profound part of that was that when three years later when he was finally arrested and then convicted I was in the courtroom when he was sentenced and the judge said do you have any to him do you have anything you'd like to say and he said I'd like to apologize to the victim and he said I don't think that's appropriate here, I don't think that's appropriate. Where I felt even then, yes, he should be able to do that. I mean, I was far more interested in him being healed, and so we wouldn't do it to anyone else than I was about just incarcerating them. So that was a really key moment where I felt like, okay, if I can help the judicial system understand the importance of allowing be some compassion going each way, some understanding, some communication, then I'm going to do that. So that was all very unexpected in answer to your

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
question. And it wouldn't have happened, I don't think, if I hadn't been a public person.

Sara Ramsay:
Yep.

Shari Ulrich:
And yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Well, and I just want to say, I know this doesn't actually have anything to do with my question, but what you were just talking about in terms of that you were far more interested in him being healed than, you know, than other, not everybody has that reaction, right? But

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
the song that you wrote about it, right? I'm not the one is I'm assuming about that.

Shari Ulrich:
Mm-hmm.

Sara Ramsay:
experience.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah. Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
And that always, that perspective always came across to me in that song, that it was not punitive. It was, I mean, it was

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
about your experience, but

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
it was also, like you, it was very clear that you expressed compassion for him as well, which I

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
thought was

Shari Ulrich:
yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
a pretty amazing place Thank you.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, I don't know quite why I did, but why I do. But that was my that was my

Sara Ramsay:
Yep.

Shari Ulrich:
instinct. I mean, at the time he was a 16 year old kid. So that probably played

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
into it. And I could tell how vulnerable

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
he was. And I survived it by talking to him, like in a way that you would not expect

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
in that situation, because I just I needed to humanize

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
myself for him. And I felt

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
after the fact that he deserved the same. He was

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
clearly a really screwed up kid. I'd actually have never used the word healed before. Usually I say I wanted him to get fixed. I wanted him to be in a rehabilitative kind of scenario, not just incarcerated,

Sara Ramsay:
Right.

Shari Ulrich:
because it doesn't do any good. However,

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
it's

Sara Ramsay:
yeah, yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
my understanding that he has had no interaction with the law since he was released 12 years later. So that's

Sara Ramsay:
Well,

Shari Ulrich:
good.

Sara Ramsay:
that is a very positive thing.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah. So other than

Sara Ramsay:
Is

Shari Ulrich:
that,

Sara Ramsay:
there anything

Shari Ulrich:
I would,

Sara Ramsay:
else? Yeah. Other

Shari Ulrich:
other

Sara Ramsay:
than

Shari Ulrich:
than

Sara Ramsay:
that,

Shari Ulrich:
that,

Sara Ramsay:
go ahead.

Shari Ulrich:
yeah, it would be in writing, like writing, when we did the Baby Boomer Blues play, I did a lot of the writing and rewriting and delivering monologues, which are really painful

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
for me because I'm not great at memorizing, like that is stressful for me. But

Sara Ramsay:
Uh

Shari Ulrich:
a kind

Sara Ramsay:
huh.

Shari Ulrich:
of theatrical experience that I hadn't done before suit. And it's one of the things I love about music, especially if you do have some notoriety, then people, I mean, I don't think of it as being exploited or used, but they will invite you or want to have you a part of something that they're doing so that it raises some awareness about it. And I find

Sara Ramsay:
Thanks for watching!

Shari Ulrich:
that very, it's an honor. And sometimes

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
it'll be experiences and interactions with people But after what I'm lying in bed tonight, I'm gonna think of the perfect answer for what you just asked me Something truly outrageous,

Sara Ramsay:
And we'll

Shari Ulrich:
but

Sara Ramsay:
just have to do this again,

Shari Ulrich:
I Guess

Sara Ramsay:
because

Shari Ulrich:
we

Sara Ramsay:
it's

Shari Ulrich:
will

Sara Ramsay:
so much fun.

Shari Ulrich:
that would be fine with me so much fun, and I can't I see you so rarely It's crazy to just be able to see you on

Sara Ramsay:
I know!

Shari Ulrich:
the screen Yeah, I think the last time was when I came to room with Saf and I remember

Sara Ramsay:
Oh!

Shari Ulrich:
coming to see the band and I can't remember the name of the

Sara Ramsay:
I

Shari Ulrich:
band

Sara Ramsay:
did,

Shari Ulrich:
but you guys

Sara Ramsay:
did I even know that you were there? It was

Shari Ulrich:
oh

Sara Ramsay:
probably

Shari Ulrich:
you did

Sara Ramsay:
the ticket that was

Shari Ulrich:
no

Sara Ramsay:
our

Shari Ulrich:
you

Sara Ramsay:
band

Shari Ulrich:
probably did

Sara Ramsay:
together.

Shari Ulrich:
but it was a very long time ago we weren't on the same

Sara Ramsay:
Oh, it

Shari Ulrich:
bill

Sara Ramsay:
was probably our, like, our, oh, that might've been just like our opening night, but that, yeah, that was, that was a while ago because we haven't played in a while. But

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
I think I saw you more recently at our, our dear friend's wedding in Harrison.

Shari Ulrich:
Oh, yes, Jessica's wedding. Right. I've forgotten

Sara Ramsay:
Yes, yes,

Shari Ulrich:
about

Sara Ramsay:
yes, yes.

Shari Ulrich:
that. Yeah.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah. I think that was the last time I saw you. Um,

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah. Yes, well,

Sara Ramsay:
so as

Shari Ulrich:
Jane

Sara Ramsay:
we wrap

Shari Ulrich:
looms

Sara Ramsay:
up

Shari Ulrich:
large

Sara Ramsay:
today,

Shari Ulrich:
in both of our lives.

Sara Ramsay:
Oh,

Shari Ulrich:
Oh, sorry.

Sara Ramsay:
yes,

Shari Ulrich:
I

Sara Ramsay:
she

Shari Ulrich:
said

Sara Ramsay:
does.

Shari Ulrich:
yes.

Sara Ramsay:
She, no, no, not at all. Jane, Jane does definitely is a, a pivotal figure in, in my life. And

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
I

Shari Ulrich:
and

Sara Ramsay:
know

Shari Ulrich:
mine.

Sara Ramsay:
has been a long time constant in yours. Yeah. Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah, love her.

Sara Ramsay:
So

Shari Ulrich:
All right, so where are

Sara Ramsay:
yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
you trying to wind up when I interrupted you?

Sara Ramsay:
I just, yeah, we're just having weird digital lag on this.

Shari Ulrich:
I know, I know.

Sara Ramsay:
But that's okay. That's all right.

Shari Ulrich:
We're used

Sara Ramsay:
It'll

Shari Ulrich:
to

Sara Ramsay:
all

Shari Ulrich:
it.

Sara Ramsay:
get fixed in the edit.

Shari Ulrich:
Excellent.

Sara Ramsay:
Is there anything else you think is really important for up and coming artists to know that we haven't touched on today?

Shari Ulrich:
I guess just a sort of blanket advice that if you are drawn to be a musical artist that you do it because of how much you love music and not because you want fame. I think

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
that that's a that's a much riskier road and

Sara Ramsay:
Hmph.

Shari Ulrich:
fraught with, you know, I think that the psychological things that analyzed first before

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
you embark on a road that that's your main impetus. Yeah

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
and

Sara Ramsay:
I would

Shari Ulrich:
I think in turn

Sara Ramsay:
fully agree with that.

Shari Ulrich:
yeah I think too that if you are always doing it because of how much you love music you can do it as long as you like.

Sara Ramsay:
Yep.

Shari Ulrich:
as long as things work. Get hands.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah, that's a

Shari Ulrich:
The

Sara Ramsay:
very

Shari Ulrich:
voices.

Sara Ramsay:
long...

Shari Ulrich:
Oh, I know.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
I

Sara Ramsay:
as

Shari Ulrich:
one

Sara Ramsay:
long

Shari Ulrich:
more.

Sara Ramsay:
as it,

Shari Ulrich:
OK,

Sara Ramsay:
oh, what's that? Go, go, go, go.

Shari Ulrich:
one more thing that I only discovered recently about singing, and it was such an epiphany for me. I learned that if I then like focus only on the lyrics that I'm singing, the meaning of the words, the message that are in the lyrics. First of all, it I'm I assume I'm probably more interesting to look at because it's coming in, it's in my face, it's in my less so in my body because I'm usually holding an instrument but it's, I'm expressing them, not just singing them but I'm expressing them but the epiphany part was that I sing way better if I'm only focusing on the words that I'm singing.

One more thing I just thought of that is a recent epiphany for me. So I wanted to share it specifically with you because of the work that you do. And that is that I, first of all, learned a fair bit ago that if that I although this comes to me naturally to sing lyrics, really thinking about what I'm singing so that it's expressed in my face and

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
that I think makes more interesting for an audience, artist

Sara Ramsay:
Hm.

Shari Ulrich:
and there's nothing else going on. But also because I think the words are really important. So when we talk, we use our our face facial expressions, but people don't often when they sing. So that's something I always do. But more recently, the epiphany was that if I really concentrate on the meaning of the lyrics that I'm singing, like with this zen like focus that the singing completely takes care of itself, I don't have to focus so hard

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
on making sure I that note or that I do an interesting phrase or I'm not that's not where my consciousness is and it just takes

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
care of itself I do sing more interesting phrases I don't croak I'm not tightening up because I'm not worried about that I'm just focusing on the

Sara Ramsay:
Hmm?

Shari Ulrich:
the message that I'm delivering because that's what we're doing we're communicating we're not perform

Sara Ramsay:
Mm-hmm.

Shari Ulrich:
just performing we're communicating

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
so yeah that's the last

Sara Ramsay:
I

Shari Ulrich:
little

Sara Ramsay:
love

Shari Ulrich:
bit

Sara Ramsay:
that.

Shari Ulrich:
I wanted to leave me with.

Sara Ramsay:
I love that.

Shari Ulrich:
I thought you would. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Sara Ramsay:
Where can people find you, Sherry? Web, social media, upcoming shows, any of that sort

Shari Ulrich:
Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
of stuff?

Shari Ulrich:
upcoming shows are easiest found on my website,

Sara Ramsay:
Okay.

Shari Ulrich:
and which is sherryolrick.com. It's a great website that Julia built. All the good things Julia built. And then

Sara Ramsay:
I've spent

Shari Ulrich:
I'm on

Sara Ramsay:
some

Shari Ulrich:
Facebook.

Sara Ramsay:
time on there the last few days and it is a great site.

Shari Ulrich:
Oh, yay. Very, very

Sara Ramsay:
Hehehe

Shari Ulrich:
functional. I am on Facebook, and I'm on Instagram, and all of those things. I don't post a lot. I'd rather go for a walk.

Sara Ramsay:
Ha!

Shari Ulrich:
But I do post. And of course, the music

Sara Ramsay:
Yep.

Shari Ulrich:
is that I can, if anybody wants to actually purchase CDs from me, they're all on the website. And if, then of course, I'm on all the usual platforms. Yeah,

Sara Ramsay:
Yep.

Shari Ulrich:
I'm out there.

Sara Ramsay:
Well, I will link all of those things in the show notes. And

Shari Ulrich:
Alright.

Sara Ramsay:
I just so very much appreciate you being on with me today. It's so much

Shari Ulrich:
Ah,

Sara Ramsay:
fun to hang out with you.

Shari Ulrich:
it

Sara Ramsay:
And,

Shari Ulrich:
is, it is.

Sara Ramsay:
and yeah,

Shari Ulrich:
We'll have to do it

Sara Ramsay:
yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
face to face one

Sara Ramsay:
And

Shari Ulrich:
of these times.

Sara Ramsay:
absolutely we will.

Shari Ulrich:
Okay,

Sara Ramsay:
Absolutely.

Shari Ulrich:
thanks for doing this.

Sara Ramsay:
Yeah.

Shari Ulrich:
It was really a pleasure, truly.

Sara Ramsay:
Well, I've had so much fun today. Thank you,

Shari Ulrich:
Good.

Sara Ramsay:
Sherry.

Shari Ulrich:
OK. OK, someday we'll do it from my actual bedroom next time with a ring light.

Sara Ramsay:
Oh hey.

Shari Ulrich:
I'm actually much healthier than this gray pallor conveys.

Sara Ramsay:
Hehehehe

Shari Ulrich:
All right. Great, Sarah. Thank you.

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